Journeys in Fandom
Step into the world of fandom with Matt and Tim as they take you on a wild ride through the pop culture universe. This isn't just any podcast - it's a journey with two mates who are unapologetically passionate about all things comics, film, TV and more.
Journeys in Fandom
Doctor Who: The Legend of Ruby Sunday Review
What if Ruby is actually her own mother in a mind-bending time loop? Join us as we untangle the intricate theories and mysteries surrounding our Doctor Who. We discuss the recent ratings dip and the BBC's focus on capturing a younger audience. Insights from a Radio Times interview add another layer to our understanding as we speculate on how demographic data might be collected through iPlayer registration and household surveys.
In our deep dive, we unravel Ruby's enigmatic origins and Sutekh's true identity. Could Ruby actually be her own mother in a complex time loop orchestrated by Sutekh? We explore the clever misdirection and crucial role of Ruby's grandmother in this time-bending narrative. The implications of using the time window to alter events add further layers to this enthralling mystery. As we connect the dots, we embrace the unanswered questions that set the stage for future revelations in our beloved series.
The absence of Daleks this season has ignited a lively debate, and we've taken a trip down memory lane, revisiting iconic moments from past episodes. With our hopes set high for the upcoming finale, we take a moment to reflect on the series' incredible journey and eagerly anticipate a conclusion that will do justice to the show's rich legacy.
Hello and welcome to episode 24 of Dungeons Fandom season 2.
Speaker 2:Woohoo.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're back again.
Speaker 2:And we're back at Doctor who.
Speaker 1:The Doctor who train is in the station and whatever analogy you want to say yeah, yeah, we're into part one of the finale, yeah where's all that time gone?
Speaker 2:it's crazy isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's like it's only seven weeks seven weeks ago do you remember when series were 13 weeks long, this would be the halfway point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be actually yeah crazy that it's like yeah could you imagine this? 13 weeks solid I don't know, I don't know. We'll get into it a bit. I've got 13 weeks, 13 weeks yes but yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is week 7 of the Doctor who mania, rather as we start this part of the season with, oh god talking of talking of wrestling, did you see that your favourite was wrestling on NXT for the championship?
Speaker 2:oh Jordan Grace yes that was a bit of a random thing, but not unsurprising these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was quite cool. I agree, she's fab as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, she's great, isn't she? Someone from NXT was facing her yesterday. Yesterday. Yeah yesterday, so they've done a crossover, go the other way. So that's quite cool it, love it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, uh, before we get to episode seven of doctor who uh, any news?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I've got quite a bit actually or well, quite a bit ratings news. Yeah so, ratings for the last week 2.11 million overnight, so down by 0.01. And the episode before Dot and Bubble, I can't forget. The plus sevens are in 3.10 and then 3.38.
Speaker 1:Was it Dotton?
Speaker 2:Bubble. Sorry, last week's one was Rogue, the week's before was Dalton Bubble.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, of course it was. It's the one we actually liked.
Speaker 2:Yes, rogue was really good, dalton Bubble not so much but still a downward trend.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would hope to see that trend rises slightly this week.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's interesting, so I have. Where is it? They did the Radio Times this week. I'll try to go and buy it today I raided the Journeys of the Fandom piggyback to go and buy it today I raided the journey to the fandom piggy bank to go buy it but I couldn't find it and I can't. It's not online but I've got like a copy of it if I share. I don't want to play the video. Some woman shared it, but this is really interesting. So basically, if people can't see the screen, he was asked in the radio times about the ratings and he, uh, as you see on the screen here, but he basically says he wants the ratings to be higher and he goes into kind of a little bit of the sort of nitty-gritty with it and said that actually space babies is already up to 5.6 million since it live, which I suppose is that point, because we we we talked about ratings.
Speaker 2:Actually it's building very slowly but it's building if that makes sense. But it's the bit after it that really resonated with me that he was brought in to make doctor who, bring in a youthful audience to doctor who and to get that under 30 demographic. And apparently, although the figures we we don't, as we as people, the public don't see those figures, he says the bbc are really happy with the figures for the under 30 demographic, which I think is. Is it the key demo? They call it in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would love to know how they know the ages of people watching. That, to me, is a black art.
Speaker 2:Well, even in America. I follow the wrestling, the wrestling ratings on that, and I don't know how they do it other than they. Actually, while we're talking, it's Alexa, isn't it?
Speaker 1:She listens to us. She knows how old we all are she reports back.
Speaker 2:Facebook has done it so when I open. Facebook, it'll be. How do they work out the key demo? This is American. What are they? Because that's the only reference I know it being to do with wrestling. But it's the same principle. If he was brought in to bring young people in, how do they know the young people are watching it?
Speaker 2:I suppose yeah if you've registered for the iplayer, I think it probably asks you for personal information. If you're dumb enough to put in your actual birth date, then I suppose that's one way of working it out I put my birth date in. You just lie, don't? You? Don't give me your personal information, man I've already got it uh, I can't.
Speaker 1:It doesn't say it used to be like on surveys and stuff like that they'd actually bring and bring people up yeah, because, again, if I'm using my account, how do I know if I have a household or if it's just me, or if I actually got like 50 children or whatever? Um, yeah it's, it's a real tough one. It's a yeah, it's, it's an interesting topic and also, I fear, a dark art of basically people making shit up no, it's american, I don't know.
Speaker 2:We're gonna have to do a bit of digging on that one. I think that's something for next week. I want to do a bit of digging to find out what is. But if you work on the principle that he was brought in purely to improve the youth demographic of the show, I think he's probably succeeded with that, because yeah as we've talked about ignoring all the uh, the politics around it, it is focused now on that.
Speaker 2:I would say I don't know, 18 to 25 demographic probably. Yeah, whereas we kind of said in the past it used to be for families, it's not for kids anymore, I would say that it's not marketed at kids.
Speaker 2:it's marketed at that 18 to 25 year old demographic and I I believe that and I think he's actually succeeded, because I was looking the other day at the they do the Doctor who official podcast. So like us. But on a budget there's three people there's normally three people that sit round a table and they're all in that demographic and they're all.
Speaker 1:Is Crystal one of them, or is that my imagination?
Speaker 2:Yes, she does. She works for the BBC in some variety or another anyway or something, but she's always in the Doctor who stuff. But she's in that and they recycle this group of people and they're all in that 18 to 25 demographic. And it's like because I thought wouldn't it be nice if you had a section of the Doctor who fandom on that podcast and had an old person, person our age and some young people, but obviously not because they're trying to tailor it to that younger audience, so it makes sense.
Speaker 2:So I thought that interview was interesting. He also went on to say that he's writing the scripts for Series 3. It's not been commissioned yet and Shooty is off to do a play in between, and I found that he's doing in the importance of being earnest in West. End between what dates did it say November this year to January next year? So they're obviously not going to film anything, probably until they see how a successful next series goes. I wouldn't think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so gone, like we said, gone are the days of old who, where they're tied in and they're filming back to back. There's going to be a gap. Yeah, so series two, doctor who, will finish, I imagine, this time next year, if they go for the same thing whether they do a Christmas one, I don't know and then there'll be a gap. Well, there might not be a gap because, if you think about it, if they've already filmed two back to back, they've got one in the bag. He finishes his play in January. He could be back filming yeah, I'd assume they're filming February time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so actually in some ways if they do get commissioned for a third series. It will come, and it will know about it sort of around well after Christmas time, won't it? Because that's when you'll be back.
Speaker 1:They'll analyse series one and they'll get a vibe for series two, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And then obviously series three. They might even kill him off. We never know. So who knows? Episode one kill him off. Yes, get it regenerated that would be bold.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it'll be series three regenerate because it was yeah, he won't.
Speaker 2:He won't hang around more than three series. That's the norm these days it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's. Pete davidson felt in it, he, he, he said three and done, and pretty much all the new who guys have done that, because he said that's a tenant and they all follow his lead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of it's the trope. Didn't he get that for patrick trotter?
Speaker 1:yeah, no, peter said didn't he beat him for?
Speaker 2:patrick trotter originally am I dreaming?
Speaker 1:that I don't know, because obviously, obviously, tom baker hung around for far too long and it's your whole idea of do it. Make your mark, move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it might have been Patratton originally, but that would be interesting because obviously he was the first of the new.
Speaker 2:Maybe I know it was definitely Peter Davidson, definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and well, it is his father of law, isn't it so?
Speaker 2:it makes sense. Yeah, don't linger, yeah, anyway, so we shall see on that, but I thought it was interesting. The the youth thing, I I genuinely agree. I think he probably successfully has pitched it at a certain demographic. He said about making it more youthful and stuff like that, which, again, in some respects he's done that and and in some respects he hasn't. And I think we'll probably touch on that today.
Speaker 1:Like I say, we're definitely the youthful audience, right?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, youth youth, youth, yeah, youth, we're youth. We are Down with the kids, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that phrase. My girlfriend hates it completely. But. I always use it on a regular basis and she hates it every time I say it. Her soul dies a little bit every time I use those words.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are, I am down with the kids oh yeah, oh yeah, oh, baby, right, um, so I'm going, oh, I'm going to preempt, I'm going to start this time. Um, usually let's do this, uh, when we don't like something, uh, we rant about it for a long time. So if I was to record this podcast about this episode, it would be about 10 seconds long, because I really liked it yeah, I'll go with that.
Speaker 2:I really liked it too, right cool next week on this episode.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, it was great move on old man shouts at clouds background.
Speaker 2:But I don't really need it, but I feel like it has to be consistent for the entire series yeah no, you have old man shouts at clouds.
Speaker 1:I have power girl yes, there we go.
Speaker 2:Power girl shouts at clouds. Oh no, I'm tired.
Speaker 1:It's been a long day yeah, it has been a long, long day, but no, all joking aside, I enjoyed all of it. I just yeah, well, actually this is just a good episode of Doctor who. Let's wait till next week to see how Russell fucks it up.
Speaker 2:That is exactly how it is. We said it last week Last three episodes of Russell T Davis shows always are really good, really good. Penultimate, penultimate episode, really good, penultimate episode and the last one is always rubbish. So if he's following his trend to next week he's going to be rubbish, but I don't want it to be, but it's the way it always goes.
Speaker 1:I enjoyed it so much I'm almost tempted to book a cinema ticket.
Speaker 2:I did see that as well, and then I thought I haven't got the ability to do it.
Speaker 1:I'm too old and too grumpy to do it, but actually, if I knew that the next episode was going to be as good as the one I've just watched, I'd be in the cinema.
Speaker 2:I did think. I'm not going to cinema, I'm tempted to wait until midnight next Saturday and watch it as it comes. That's how crazily impressed pleased I was with it, impressed whatever you want to call it. Yeah with that. So no, it was really good, really edge, proper edge of the seat stuff and yeah, yeah, where do we want to start? Uh, lots of things flying around yeah, well, obviously the classic.
Speaker 1:If you haven't watched it yet, watch it because we're going to talk about it in detail spoilers yes, on multiple. Yeah yeah, so the fact that I felt so stupid, the fact that she's called susan, I went, I went. How did I miss that? No, one, you know when you just you know when your brain just goes sorry what? And you're just thinking no, no, no, no, no it was.
Speaker 2:How did I miss that? How it was as if and it made me chuckle they'd somehow watched all the YouTube videos and all the web theories about who she was and then threw it into the episode because you had Anagram of TARDIS, which loads of people have been saying.
Speaker 1:We had Susan, his granddaughter, and they went duh.
Speaker 2:But the actual big reveal. Some people had got it, but no one really. I don't think I've seen anyone who had the theory related to the name.
Speaker 1:They hadn't linked those two things up no we we've guessed it because of the pyramids in the back. But that was perhaps. Yeah, but that was a red herring as well, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:because that was just two more faces we've not seen in the show, but I've obviously popped up in books or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we got that on a tenuous that and the one who waits because it's a god and he's faced a god before. So, it's a bit tenuous, but it wasn't the fact that it was Susan Tech.
Speaker 1:Sue.
Speaker 2:Tech. I thought that's really clever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because as soon as it started, mojane went we have, we got it right, but for the wrong reasons completely. But it was just like, yes, I felt so clever and so stupid. Yes, we're going to throw all these these red herrings in just because we can, uh guess yeah so the fact we still don't know who Ruby's mother is, even when they had the little photo thing we don't.
Speaker 2:The thing is, it's not a criticism, but it's a good criticism. At the end of the episode, we didn't learn anything other than.
Speaker 1:Sue.
Speaker 2:Tech has returned. We haven't learned who Ruby is, who her mother is, who Susan Twist is and how she managed to do all that stuff. We didn't learn anything, so we've got all that to come. So it's like they dangled all these mysteries.
Speaker 1:They didn't solve anything it's a perfect politician speech.
Speaker 2:They spoke for 45 minutes and said nothing yeah and you go yes, perfect, because obviously susan twist is related to sutek, but she's not sutek embodied. I thought she was going to end up being his kind of vessel, but obviously he popped out in full cgi dog form whatever the jackal is, yeah, uh at the end, uh, so she's not related to that. But why was it all just a trap? The one thing I'm gonna jump around I know a lot of this.
Speaker 2:I, although we joked about it way back, I still think ruby is going to be her own mother or something. Reason being obviously oh, we've got mrs flood, haven't we? Mrs flood is obviously not a tardis or anything weird. She's just one of sutek's followers. So you've got mrs flood and grandma separated from everybody else. So do we think that he's going to use grandma as some kind of leverage to make ruby do something to create this kind of time loop herself? And the bond, the fact that she's pointing in that video it's because it's ruby trying to warn the doctor in the future, in the past, that kind of thing that's.
Speaker 2:It's a bit tenuous, but that's what I'm going for, ruby, I mean yeah, it's going to be great for me she's going to be the key to the time loop that sutek has created her in order to get him free, and she has to put herself back in time to create that loop. That's how I think it's going to work yeah, so she's not real. She is created by him to in order to free himself.
Speaker 1:That's my theory. I like that. That's good. That's my theory.
Speaker 2:So we've just finished recording and now we're recording again, and by the power of time travel, no pun intended, we're going to slot this in because Matt's had a better theory, which I kind of agree with, about how ruby is going to be in the past. So, yeah, part this one. Sutec is going to use grandma as leverage, probably against the doctor, not necessarily against ruby, because he knows that the doctor will save the one person. So that's, grandma is leverage for something. That's what we know. Go for it. How are we going to get ruby from one side to the other?
Speaker 1:the episode finishes, ruby is in the time window and I don't think she's going to leave that time window next episode. So the time window is on and she is going to use that window to travel back to when she's born, to somehow interact with or probably even be her own mum, like will herself into existence, kind of thing. Because I like, because it's time.
Speaker 2:She's seen that happen. So she wills herself into existence. So she's not born from anybody. She creates herself going back in time because she's already seen it happen. So she knows that her as a baby is put by the church. So, using the time window, she wills herself into existence because she's already happened. So she knows it's already happened. So, by default, when she goes back in time to the time window, she puts herself there because she's already there, if that makes sense yeah, there was a throwaway lines of oh, you can't, how can you have a granddaughter if you haven't had kids yet?
Speaker 1:and they go well, it's all time travel nonsense. So that's absolutely fine. Yeah, the fact that the doctor says, oh, if you can't stand in a way of where the woman in the robes is going to walk, because he'll interfere with what's happened already and you can't change anything, so she is going to definitely change something, yeah, they set it up to happen.
Speaker 1:So she's either going to interfere with him or she's going to become the woman in the robes. And there's something, yes, going to happen there. And literally as soon as we finished recording, we went oh God, just idea dump.
Speaker 2:Yes, quick record it before we forget what it was, because you also said the fact that she's the time window. Quick record it before we forget what it was. You also said the fact that she's the time window. That's why it keeps snowing, because she's in the time window and keeps dragging back to that point in time where it snows she is almost a fixed point in time when she's born.
Speaker 1:That point keeps radiating out and it's radiating through her because she's connected to it.
Speaker 2:I agree with you. I think unit soldiers is going to die because that's what they do. Yeah, she's going to stay in that time window and is going to somehow manipulate the past to get to the point that she needs to be. So I think yeah she's going to end up creating herself through time itself, because it's that thing, it's already happened, she's seen it already happened. So, therefore, it's that thing, it's already happened, she's seen it already happen.
Speaker 1:So therefore, it's going to happen again, because I'm going to make it happen yeah, and that's going to somehow also probably save the day in some way without her being like a superhero.
Speaker 2:It would be a normal person, I don't mind that I don't mind if she's like it's not going to be superheroes, it's gonna be ruby just being ruby to do it and if it turns out she's some kind of entity with no parents that's just created, willed into existence because of the time itself. That's quite cool and I I can go with that. I could go with her saving the day in that way, because it kind of makes sense yeah it, yes, it would be another companion.
Speaker 1:It isn't a standard human, but actually I think we're slightly bored of the roses and amys and claras that are all which davina.
Speaker 2:Davina mccall said when they did the genetic DNA tests for her, they got no match. They got no match because she hasn't got any parents, because she's just created by time itself. She's created herself. So there is no DNA. Yes, yes. I love it.
Speaker 1:She's got no familial DNA, because she doesn't exist, because she's her.
Speaker 2:Because she's just like spawned herself.
Speaker 1:So she is her own parent, which which is weird, but it works and I like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And because obviously you got the the the tardis within sutek and it's yes, so somehow she's going to create everything she needs to do to make this loop happen yeah, yeah, probably nothing like this.
Speaker 2:It put it really, but I think that's the best idea.
Speaker 1:We like the idea. Yeah, yeah. So yes, next time on Journeys of Phantom Unleashed.
Speaker 2:Right, we will go. We'll see you in the past, in the future, back in the past. Goodbye again, adios.
Speaker 1:Bye. And the old Harbinger again, and the old Harbinger again. Shorten names. What was it? Harriet Bringer or something?
Speaker 2:Harbinger.
Speaker 1:And I went yeah cool.
Speaker 2:Nice, Did you hear the? You mentioned the trickster in that little phrase, Because that was one of the theories that the trickster was going to be the main villain. So that was quite cool. So it was a nice series.
Speaker 1:And there was a couple of other gods in there besides maestro and toy maker that I have to put the subtitles on who was the one they didn't catch, because obviously in uni I talk about oh yeah, we look at all this stuff and it's, oh yeah, the one we didn't get, that little at the beginning of the episode, when yeah, when they're saying the people that keep an eye on when, uh, when she's about when she's on stage, when they're saying the people they keep an eye on, when she's about when she's on stage talking, and they said, oh yeah, we keep an eye on this and obviously it's not a TARDIS, but we keep an eye on people, apart from the one that, that one that we didn't get and the little kid again, it's good, oh that one and.
Speaker 2:I'm. There's a lot of information flying around and lots of in not jokes, but in kind of if you know, you know kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you just go mad Because there are a couple of bits where I went wait what I had to rewind for like 20 seconds and go wrong. What did they actually just say?
Speaker 2:Just so.
Speaker 1:I can yeah On the plus side.
Speaker 2:I didn't doze off.
Speaker 1:I was very much to the TV ready watching, taking it all in.
Speaker 2:I thought the time window thing was cleverly done where obviously they hooked it up to the VHS and it was VHS-y type effects. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I think I've solved my own question here is Ruby and her mum say they watch the VHS every year, Ignore the fact that a VHS is probably worn out after 19 years after having to keep watch it. The doctor wasn't in the video they watched last year because he hadn't gone back in time yet for it to happen, because obviously they haven't seen him in the video yet because it hadn't happened until christmas just gone. Obviously I'm talking about it's christmas before last, when they sat down and watching it on their own. He wouldn't have been in yet because it hadn't happened until Christmas just gone. Obviously I'm talking about Christmas before last, when they sat down and watched it on their own. He wouldn't have been in it because they hadn't met him yet. Am I right in thinking that?
Speaker 1:Again, it's what rules of time travel are we using? Well, that's how.
Speaker 2:I work it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it happens, it always happens.
Speaker 2:It actually was her rant.
Speaker 1:And again, depending on where it's coming from. Yeah, it'd be really weird because obviously she would know him before she knew him.
Speaker 2:That's the only way I can explain it, Because it hadn't happened yet. It wasn't in the video until it happened.
Speaker 1:That's the time, the rule of time I'm working with Bill and Ted rules. Facts of the future rules.
Speaker 2:Who knows?
Speaker 1:rules. One of those many rules, but obviously it wasn't just the video, because it was him also adding his time, lordiness and actual memories and discussion. So he was actually yeah, what he's got as a baseline and adding in the all the extra thing no happens yeah, so it's kind of a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pitch assault time yeah, because she also said in the video.
Speaker 1:She doesn't point either. Oh, yeah, yeah, unless. I've imagined that. Yeah, but there's, there's something they said in the video. She doesn't do it in the video they watched, so obviously it's all it's changing.
Speaker 2:It's as if it's changed, as he's starting to influence it by being in the time window, but not in the time window.
Speaker 1:But not in the time window. Yeah, that was good.
Speaker 2:The kind of building tension was really good that way. It just suddenly everything started to unravel a little bit.
Speaker 1:I also love the fact that when you walk in, they go oh, this is a really high-tech time window we've been spending years on. And he goes you should have together, didn't you? And you go yeah, this is time travel with an expert versus a beginner.
Speaker 2:And you go with an expert versus a beginner and just go what the hell is this? He's like the laugh of what is this? He was great all the way through this. Again, again, two episodes in a row, especially that bit where he kind of, when he's with mel and he kind of had that moment by the lifts and she just basically tell him to sort himself out and get it sorted.
Speaker 2:But it's just kind of like it's kind of what you do and just kind of exasperated and just worn down, and she's just like basically give them the pep talk saying get on with it which is what she always used to do. Six anyways, just bossing around, yeah, and she's still doing it now, which is brilliant.
Speaker 1:Another nice little touch there yeah, I thought rose was good. Yeah, I think she was just there being her, which I think that went yep cool, yeah, there was no, like there was with 14.
Speaker 2:There was no kind of overt, kind of yeah, there was a tiny one, tiny one, but again it was just it worked. It was just yeah, which being a normal character rather than just kind of being there for another reason, it just yeah, she just slotted in, actually better than donna, I thought I in the whole unit thing she kind of fitted better in the mold than donna. I thought I in the whole unit thing she kind of fitted better in the mold than donna would have done.
Speaker 1:If that makes sense yeah, and the fact is like her mum is part of the unit and she said oh, how's your mom and how's your uncle? Yeah, he's still drinking tea. So 14 is still just sat there in the garden drinking tea still when sutec has returned to destroy the earth.
Speaker 2:Then he's like yeah, yeah, yeah, don't. And he's like I'm going to drink some tea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't worry, he's got this. I'm going to drink more tea, lovely.
Speaker 2:If he's not in the episode next week, I'll be very surprised.
Speaker 1:I don't know there's no way he can be in there. Russell has already said.
Speaker 2:But I just can't. We've talked about it enough. I'm not going to go down that road. It grates on me a bit. Freaking T what else, what else, what else? Because again it was kind of weird, I suppose it's they had one mystery and then they had two mysteries and then he was like right, what about this woman?
Speaker 2:And it was nice to see that unit had already got her of oh, you're doing this, okay, I've got another mystery for you. Let's sort this out instead, because I was trying to think back and I have to watch it again is how did we pivot from one mystery to another? All of a sudden, it was okay, and we've got ruby here. We need to solve this as well. Can we do this? At the same time, it was kind of there was yeah, it pivoted.
Speaker 1:I can't remember how it pivoted, but it just did well, it's literally that he still said oh, I need to find out about this. And I went what you mean, her, that we've been tracking for like ages, cool. And he goes all right, fine, we'll do something else, then yeah yeah, yeah, well, I got your attention, kind of thing. Uh, ruby hi, she can make it snow.
Speaker 2:She's got videotape yeah, we saw the crack in the ceiling in ruby's flat, which was nice bit of continuity there.
Speaker 1:It'd been fixed, so that was good, I was like, oh, crack in the ceiling yep, um, what else, what else, what else? Uh, it was. Yeah, it was just a whirlwind, wasn't it? And the fact they're always like testing going right, what is she, what is she, what is she. And then obviously at the end, which is because hands over the face and it gets out. Yeah, yeah, that was nice. There were words in there, just there were some nice practical effects there.
Speaker 2:It'd be interesting to see how they do Sutec next week, because obviously CGI at the moment. I always liked Sutec when he was just like a man or like the old school I know it's obviously the 60s and stuff like that or 70s, but if it's all going to be CGI it might be alright. Obviously they've got the budget, don't get me wrong, but it'd be interesting to see how it is, it's.
Speaker 1:BBC CGI, not Gollum CGI, isn't it? This is the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but some of the effects are really good, like when the TARDIS landed in Unit HQ. That was really cool, that was done well. But then, yeah, it will be interesting to see how the SUTEC creature plays out, or whether it's a bit like interest in the same voice, the devil thing where it's kind of he's not actually physically talking to it, he's talking to it in his head, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I like the fact that when they're playing in reverse and you go, why is there a target in the middle of this, like just dust cloud? Wait a minute. And again. That's the third mystery of how did sutek escape?
Speaker 2:yeah and yeah. How did it attach itself?
Speaker 1:unless it was the end of the universe from um 14's time where it just goes, oh if I break the salt and all that stuff, it weakens these barriers and suddenly it's the hitch to lift very slowly across sort of time and space.
Speaker 2:And it's just been then it doesn't explain what susan twists, unless that's to bring, unless it's all part of the concept of it being 99 a trap that the whole thing was going through and it's becoming more evident it's a trap. So maybe it was just. She was just there to lure him in to the point where you can get Ruby in the right spot to break this all timey-wimey circle time thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah because, let's face it, which villain in their right mind is going to give themselves the name of a retardist? That's literally going. Here's a big like fucking yeah, come get me, come, come find me, kind of thing, yeah yes, uh, gabriel wolf was the voice of sutek, which I thought was cool.
Speaker 2:Brought him back again, brilliant. Um, the look. Well, we'll see how that pans out and how, yeah, where it's going there. Actually, there might be a trailer while we speak. Let's have a look.
Speaker 1:What else Do I want to see a trailer? I honestly don't know.
Speaker 2:Oh, I will not play it then.
Speaker 1:Well, no, Before we play it. I always find that sometimes a trailer can be, especially for a two-parter, because will they give away?
Speaker 2:That's my fear. They might give away two. Well, they didn't put a trailer at the end of the episode.
Speaker 1:No, I was happy with it. There's no spoiler because normally it goes next week on Doctor who. Oh look, I'm fine and you go please, please, don't do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, I might just leave it. Unless a trailer is literally how's he going to get out of this mess? Because?
Speaker 1:he is in a bit of a pickle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's not a lot anyone can do Interesting this episode. They've been harping on about how we were going to go down the fantasy route. This wasn't fantasy, this was classic Doctor who sci-fi again, Because Sutec is not a fantasy character, it's born out of Doctor who lore. So this kind of sort of thing, oh, we're going to move on. There's only one episode in this series well, two Goblins and only one episode in this series where they actually did something, and that was the old 73 yards. Everything else has been sci-fi to a certain extent, yeah.
Speaker 1:And to not put too fine a point on it. Doctor who is a sci-fi to a certain extent, yeah, and to not put too fine a point on it doctor who is a sci-fi show and you just go, it just is. And if you try and pull away from that unless you're saying or unless the bieber saying actually the, the target audience doesn't like sci-fi and is in fact more into fantasy-esque stuff, but you can't really just come on.
Speaker 2:I think it needs to just be that proper kind of spacey sci-fi show, just a classic this is a core element, just do it properly it felt like these last week, this week felt like classic doctor who, like that's classic new who, you know what I mean. Uh, yeah, it felt like classic Doctor who, like classic new who, you know what I mean. Yeah, it felt like a sci-fi, but it didn't feel fantasy at all. So where that kind of quote and that kind of idea came from is beyond me, because really we've not had a fantasy-esque episode at all.
Speaker 1:Really, it's all been sci-fi. I've had a thought there's been no Daleks this season.
Speaker 2:They've got to be in it. It's got to be Christmas, isn't it? Children in need oh yeah, if they can slot them in, that counts, does that count?
Speaker 1:As they haven't been in the main series. Unless we're having Daleks at Christmas, I think it counts. It's tenuous, yeah, it been in the main series, unless we're having daleks at christmas, I think it counts. Uh, yeah, it was one. It was one dalek, wasn't it? Yeah, there was a definite dalek, several quick and old old.
Speaker 2:Nothing about the Christmas special, apart from.
Speaker 1:It exists.
Speaker 2:Sid Moffat's Right in it.
Speaker 1:Oh god.
Speaker 2:Oh, both. Yeah, so he's. It's going to be Christmas Day again, so both of them have been on Christmas Day. Err, don't know, don't know, does it count? I don't know, it's. It's the myth, though, isn't it? It's the myth, that is real, but it's not real that the daleks are contracted to be in every season regardless, so I suppose they could have got around it like that and had them in children in need, and that that gives them that get out clause in it for another year yeah, yeah, because again is it?
Speaker 1:is it a real thing? Is it just an urban myth? And actually does two minutes in a Christmas? Children need special count Because it's technically part of the season.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the Daleks spoke, didn't it? Did it speak?
Speaker 1:No, because Davros was there. It was literally the prototype, wasn't it? He was talking to that bloke. He was talking to the bloke. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah well's, let's assume there are. If they're not in the Christmas episode, that means the myth has been broken or it's been kind of proven right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, get a jail clause tick, yeah, cool continue unless. I just got rid of the darts.
Speaker 2:I think in some ways they're as tired as a lot of things and actually just parking them for oh hang on that season, the first Jodie Whittaker season, where they tried to go all off off peace and do things different.
Speaker 1:I don't know, because obviously they were in the time limit episode?
Speaker 2:no, they were in New Year time episode. No, they were in new year's resolution. They were in, like it was in that series. Uh, yeah, the time loop episode, wasn't it? Yeah, no, this, no, they're in the first one where it was the scout dalek that was rebuilding itself. It looks slightly different and it was rebuilding itself out of scrap oh, yes, yes, yes, yes yes, so yes, they were in that series, then they were in the time loop series at the other christmas, and then they were also in another episode as well.
Speaker 1:So yeah, they've been in multiple episodes, so ignore that one because obviously in her regeneration arc, weren't they? Because obviously the cyber time lords and the dialectseks all teamed up and it was a mess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they've not gone away. So this will be the first series where they've not been in a main episode.
Speaker 1:Hmm, children in Need camps yes.
Speaker 2:I suppose they weren't in the 14th Doctor era, were they Either? So the Children in Need might have. Well, they were in his were. Yeah, they were his. Yeah. No, they were. That was the 14th Doctor. Yeah, david Tennant was there, wasn't he?
Speaker 1:So they've not been in the 15th? Yeah, but do the specials in season one all count as a? It's all RTD here, isn't it? It's all just his first bit. Yeah, it's all Urban Myth innit Urban Legends.
Speaker 2:Urban.
Speaker 1:Legends. If in an urban legends urban legends I don't know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, anything else, anything else.
Speaker 1:That was good about this I think, all joking aside, the episode was just good.
Speaker 2:It was just casey, yep, I like and you say I like the start, where he basically just rocked up and said right, we've got mystery, we need to solve it, because normally it's a slow build to to work in something out, but it was, though, right, this is it from literally the first couple of minutes.
Speaker 2:I need to sort this out, we've got this problem and basically telling the other characters what we, as the viewers, have already spotted like. I've worked it out. This is what we need to sort out, not like bad wolf, which took him an age to work out. It's like right, we just sort it out, no messing about. So the episode didn't sort of trundle along with susan twist there and sometimes they do it, don't they, when they?
Speaker 2:have like the evil character in the background. Then suddenly the doctor works it out about halfway through. This was just like I've worked it out already and, like we said, it was all a bit of a red herring in itself.
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing, Because if you look at Bad Wolf, which was the slow burn, you had to do something different. So actually have him turn up and go, what the hell is going on? It's also very much 15. It's just a case of what the yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, straight in. I'm just going to sort this out now. Yeah, I guess we've always, because we've said and we've been struggling to work out what his character is and it's weird this whole series, all joking apart with the russell t davies finale episode.
Speaker 2:Uh, what's the word curse? Put that to one side, it's it's as if in the last two weeks, this episode, this series, has suddenly just got itself into gear and actually now knows what it wants to be. So we've had the misfire at the start and then it kind of trundled the log in the middle, had a bit of a wobble with 73 yards trying to do something different, and then sort of sudden just went into overdrive and it's as if the and for us it's probably different for other people, but the only time it actually started getting interesting is when they went back to its roots. They went back to how it should be rather than trying to be something that's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and again in a 13-episode series. Those episodes that we despised would have been the filler episodes in between the good ones, yes, or some of the slightly poor episodes would have been better for two-parters.
Speaker 1:Yes, of the slightly poor episodes would have been better for two parters. Yes, and that was the thing. Like all the episodes felt rushed, but this didn't, because you had a whole 50 minutes an hour, whatever it is to build up, and you said that you go, oh, I've had all that build up. Now next week is going to be the, the, the climax of it. It's because, yes, it's what we want, whereas if, if they tried to truncate that into one episode, it would have been garbage, like all the others were.
Speaker 2:I suppose in the old days as well. It was 45 minute episodes, wasn't it? So they've had to squeeze all that into 45 minutes, and when it used to be an hour, we're like oh, it's an hour, it's not 45 minutes. What's going to happen for the extra 15 minutes? Well, now it's, it's. There's. The concept of adverts doesn't exist in america, it's all on disney plus, so it's 45 minutes is irrelevant. Yeah, I haven't thought about that, it is. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see once next week's out of the way you look back at the whole season as a whole and kind of look at how it's what happened, because it's it's an interesting story to tell in some respects, because there's lots of stuff has happened and it's just an interesting thing to see where it goes after next week.
Speaker 1:It's got to get through that first, yeah, and I think we've touched on this, this is, this is our fear, isn't it of? Rtd has done this so many times. It is the curse of rtd, isn't it? We just go it's so good and then it's so bad.
Speaker 2:It's just so where are we? Let's go back to the start to see. Season one was the one that didn't fit the mold. So you had bad wolf and then you had the parting of the ways, which obviously was a big reveal about the daleks. They were back in the series. I didn't know that was coming. That was back in before like like internet days, and then obviously he regenerated at the end that that is the one that doesn't fit the mold 10th.
Speaker 2:Doctor was Army of Ghosts and Doomsday, so Army of Ghosts was all the thing and it was Cybermen and it was Cybermen versus Daleks, which was great for kids, like I said, but I didn't really enjoy that and also the fact that the end of episode one is something good.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's a cyberman, oh it's a dialogue. So I was going, oh, it's gonna be amazing. And like the old um line of this isn't war of pest control, I went, yes, dynasties have got this, they're gonna do bad things. And then it just was all a bit meh, yeah, it all kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't what it did. The build-up was there. Uh. Next one was obviously sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords. So Gollum Doctor completely ruined that one. Yeah, series four, stolen Earth and Journey's End this way just threw everything at the wall to see what was going to fit. We got Doctor Donna and all that nonsense again. Really good. Davros was back for a first episode. Then he just got punked out, didn't he? Specials doesn't count, because that's end of time and that was great. 11th Doctor oh, 11th Doctor screws with my mind a bit, because I always get really confused with that's not the RTD era anymore, is it?
Speaker 1:no oh no, yes, not too far. Yeah, that's the Muffet era. Yeah God, yeah, this is pretty complicated.
Speaker 2:So yeah, peaks and troughs on all those final episodes and always the third episode, the previous one. So again, first series doesn't count because Boomtown was all right but it wasn't great. So series two was Fear Her. Well, that was a bit rubbish actually, I stand corrected. That was the Olympic Games one where it was a bit rubbish. Actually, I stand corrected. That was the Olympic Games one where it was the girl who drew stuff on the walls in her bedroom and it came to life.
Speaker 2:That was a bit rubbish maybe the mould is slightly not correct on this one.
Speaker 1:Series 3 was obviously great because you had Utopia but that felt like a 3 part episode, not a 2 part series.
Speaker 2:yes, and the same with the next year, because you had Turn Left, which had Rose back somehow. Yes, that was obviously the lead-in to that one. So, yeah, not so much on that one, but near enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it appears to be the penultimate episode, and it's always a solid one because it's a build-up. He just can't stick the landing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, rogue was always wasn't really a third three-parter here, but it was just a really good episode. But yeah, it's that I'm hoping he said it's like this episode. He keeps saying, yeah, go and see the cinema, you've got to get spoiled. It's the biggest finale we've ever done. I really hope they're not going to chuck loads of stuff at it, but he's brought back a not a niche villain, he's brought back quite a. It's a villain that the fandom would know, which again is weird.
Speaker 2:We are talking quite a long time about this. Yeah, here's someone who is quite openly well not him personally, you might have said it, but the press machine has gone out and said we're not interested in old fans, we're not interested in we're pitching it to the youth. Yeah, here's a niche villain that has been brought back. That has made us, as fans, excited because it is a really cool niche villain that everyone's been talking about for years, so he's got to explain who. It is a really cool niche villain that everyone's been talking about for years, so he's got to explain who it is next episode.
Speaker 1:If you're a newbie, yeah. If you're a newbie yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:so this is a yeah, because they didn't really explain it in that it's just a god called sutek, but we all know who it is, so it's interesting that for someone who's saying they're pitching it, they don't want the older fan, they want these new, younger people. He's really got to explain who Sutec is next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, otherwise it's going to get lost, unless it's going to be a quick exhibition dump.
Speaker 2:It's the doctor's reaction to Sutec, isn't it that's going to be?
Speaker 1:a little bit.
Speaker 2:And he can just do a one liner to explain.
Speaker 1:Unit could even explain it, couldn't they? It's a God of Death pack, yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting he's brought that villain back because it's a very niche Doctor who fandom villain rather than something more mainstream.
Speaker 1:Do we have a regular section of views of an eight-year-old?
Speaker 2:We do, and this is a really interesting one. This was the first episode where he was genuinely frightened, genuinely didn't like what was going on.
Speaker 2:In a nice way I wasn't just letting him sit there and get scared. No, he didn't like the build up, the tension, the woman in the hood, the whole thing was the time, because he was like going, what's going on? And we had all the way through the episode. He was asking so many questions like what's this, what's that, what's that, was that? So I had to keep pausing it to kind of answer all the questions, but I was getting genuinely excited. Going on, this is suit tech, this is, and it came. He was generally freaked out by the CGI of the Sue tech thing as well and all the masks and stuff. So success.
Speaker 1:He was genuinely behind the sofa.
Speaker 2:He was hot, he had the cushion in front of his face and that was like parent, parental tick in a box there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's the thing, that's what's done we're joking about it all. But that's what doctor who is? It is literally. You are at home hiding behind a sofa because it is.
Speaker 2:It is scary to a sensible level, yeah, and I think that's coupled with that interview this week. I think this is where they've changed. Doctor who is not aimed, it's not marketed to kids, it's marketed to tweens and that young demographic. It still is for kids, don't get me wrong, but it is now pitching stories and things not all the time, but most of the time at a different audience, and the kids are getting left behind. That's my fear is that we go through all these episodes and my son's either liked it, thought it was a bit boring, but has never been genuinely scared by. Let's go through it. So space babies. He wasn't scared about that, uh, maestro, he just was really confused with the whole thing. What's next? What is?
Speaker 1:it.
Speaker 2:Boom. He found that boring because it was just in one place, 76 yards. He found interesting, but he wasn't scared at all. Dot and bubble. He didn't like the trailer, but when he watched it he was fine and it was just not phased back. This was the first one where he's genuinely gone. I don't like this. I don't like it. It's scary for lots of different reasons and I thought that was really good because the pointy woman was a bit, because it was the music, the atmosphere and it was just the way it was all shifting and I was going that woman's going to walk through and actually the big road hood.
Speaker 1:She had that whole sort of like long point where they are, yeah, the thing draping that okay. Well, actually, if that's not a death motif, then what else is?
Speaker 2:yeah, and it was. I thought she was actually going to come corporeal and then come real by walking through. So it kind of happened. I was going oh, and he's going yeah, and we were just kind of like it could see something.
Speaker 2:So, no, he, he wants to watch the second one. I said you don't have to watch, you don't do? He said, no, I want to watch it because I want to know what's going to happen. And I was like that's it, yeah, I've got you hooked. Yeah, I've got you hooked because he's doing he's doing egyptians at school. So he knows about the jackal, he knows about death and the whole concept of it. And I said, well, really, he's just a space egyptian and that's kind of what he's about. That's all it really is. So, yeah, I was quite chuffed with it today. So that's what it should be about. Doctor who isn't? Yeah, no, I've got to save that until we go through the whole series next time. But it should be for the kids. That's the reaction we should be getting. But I don't think.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because of this desire for ratings, we're not getting it. But anyway, like you said, desire for ratings, we're not getting it. But anyway.
Speaker 1:But, like, I think this episode I think restored my faith in the show is a strong statement, but actually it was solid and I went yes, if you're gonna, if you're gonna set a tone, do that. Just do that, please. That's all I want you to do to. I think next week is gonna be the test please, that's all I want you to do to.
Speaker 2:I think next week is going to be the test, yeah, and for the curse notwithstanding, but they've got a lot to cram in in a very short space of time. Yeah, it's been good, it's it's. Yeah, it's the football analogy again, we've had two weeks in a row, we've had two good results. Can we get? A result in the final, or are?
Speaker 1:we going to get absolutely hammered, yeah yeah, we need to seek sick landing guys. This is what we want to do. And yeah, like I said, I didn't. I couldn't fall asleep and, as we know, I'm an old man, which everyone found really funny last week. Thanks guys. Yeah, I was glued to it. I thought, yes, this is good. I had to rewind a few bits. Don't want to miss anything. I'm going to probably watch it again before.
Speaker 2:I might even watch it tomorrow night, because I had to keep stopping it. I might watch it on my own, just to again.
Speaker 1:There's two episodes in a row that I'd happily watch again so, yeah, it's all down to next week and I think, joking aside, part of me wants to go and see it in the cinema. But if I don't, I think I might just sit and watch it that night when it comes out. Yeah, just uh, just because I know my iphone hates me and I wake up in the morning and it'll say surprise yeah, a bit like when you, when you're vegetable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a bit like when, like wrestlemania's been on, I avoid touching any social media. So if I don't watch it at midnight next Saturday, I'll be watching it in the morning, get a few things done and then watch it.
Speaker 1:I'll get up and watch it before I go anywhere, because otherwise some soldier will just go. Oh yeah, did you see? No, shut up.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it be be interesting to see what they do and how they do it yeah, can you stick the landing? Come on rtd my theory, ruby stands. All joking apart. Ruby is ruby, ruby's mom is her, and somehow she's been created by sutek to open the portal to get him back, and he'll use Grandma as the leverage to get that done. Grandma is going to be the leverage for something. Yeah, but I don't know what.
Speaker 1:Just be good, that's all I want.
Speaker 2:The one thing that also is interesting is don't forget the analogy from Maestro episode. There's always a twist at the end, so is there going to be a twist, twist, not a Susan twist, but a another twist at the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I said just just be good. Just be good. I'm asking for nothing else. Dear RTD, just stick the landing. That's all I want you to do, Break the cycle Listen to my fanboy prayer here Don't fuck it up, just please.
Speaker 2:I think that's the part in comment. Just don't fuck it up. Get it right. Yeah, be good. You can't say any more than that. You wait, it'll be a. It'd be an hour's political message.
Speaker 1:Heavy episode the fact, the fact you've let that idea into the universe is now forming and coalescing oh no, I'm you, tim I blame you, ruby vhs paradox has created woke su tech. Uh god, oh god, that will be fine, it'll be fine yeah yeah I think my, uh, my last four words of this episode of the podcast are simply be good, peace out on that note, let's go.
Speaker 2:Let's go now. Bye, we'll be right back.