Journeys in Fandom
Step into the world of fandom with Matt and Tim as they take you on a wild ride through the pop culture universe. This isn't just any podcast - it's a journey with two mates who are unapologetically passionate about all things comics, film, TV and more.
Journeys in Fandom
Doctor Who: Space Babies and The Devil's Chord Review
Step aboard our TARDIS of conversation as we launch into the complex universe of Doctor Who. We don't shy away from the tough critiques, addressing the Doctor's portrayal and the series' current social commentary with a critical eye. The struggle between preserving the essence of Doctor Who while navigating through its evolving landscape leaves us with mixed feelings. From the over-the-top campiness to the introduction of interdimensional beings, we explore the shifting tones that take us from classic sci-fi to fantastical realms. Disney's bold move sparks a lively discussion on storytelling choices, production values, and the contentious Timeless Child saga that's got fans up in arms.
As we confront our existential woes and ponder our place in the ever-changing fandom universe, we share a moment of reflection. Tune in for a podcast episode that's not just a critique of a beloved series but a candid exploration of its impact on us, the viewers, poised at the nexus of nostalgia and anticipation for what's next in the world of Doctor Who.
Hello and welcome to Podcast Mania Rubber Dude. It's not a wrestling one, no, it's just we're doing two episodes of Doctor who, so this is going to be a mess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the start of, like you say, the mania that will be the next eight weeks of podcasts that have to be squeezed out in such a rapid fire fashion. Have we got any news before we start? I've not prepped for any news, but I'm sure there is some news. Uh, oh, the uh talk amongst yourselves, while I find it the first image of henry came out, yeah, uh, this week.
Speaker 2:Interestingly, the picture was on facebook and stuff during the day when it came out and I just thought it was a fan fan art. I just scrolled past it no that's quite good. I just didn't think any more of it. But it's. Oh, what's his face? Sweaty socks, corinne, corinne, sweat, isn't it? Who's Henry?
Speaker 1:Cavill's like.
Speaker 2:That's how I remember his name.
Speaker 1:Oh God.
Speaker 2:Where's the picture? Where's the picture? Where's the picture?
Speaker 1:There it is, let's get it off here Sweaty socks that's going to taint me now, oh.
Speaker 2:Oh Lord, oh God, it's massive. Never mind That'll do, because I'm totally not prepared, because I thought we were going straight into them Out of context.
Speaker 1:oh Lord, it's massive. I wasn't prepared. What have you just Googled, hey?
Speaker 2:There he is, yeah, looking just like Henry Cavill. Have you seen all the memes, though, that have?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the one at the bar, though that have. Yes yes yeah, the best one is that one which is is it, oh, is it superman three? Is it four? Three, not four. That was god awful. Yeah, thingy, where it's him in a bar. That's the best one, I think yeah, yeah, yeah it's it looks like henry cavill, except someone noted that the suit doesn't fit because it's got those are crinkles, and it should be skin tight and muscular, but he's got the red pants on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I know a few people actually took this image and literally tore the suit apart and said this is where each part of the suit comes from and like using all the previous Superman and going right, this is from this, this is from this, this is from all this comic and bits and pieces. No, that's quite interesting. I'm not sure what the big sky beam in the background is.
Speaker 2:Oh, some random villain. I didn't read the article, but it's some callback to some random thing. You know what James Gunn's like. It's some obscure thing no one's ever heard of.
Speaker 1:It's a random sky beam. Of course it's a DC or Marvel film and that's always the bad guy now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it looks okay. That's always the bad guy now. Yeah, it looks okay, and the fact is I thought it was Henry Cavill, I didn't think any more. Of it Kind of proves the point that he does kind of look like him.
Speaker 1:Yeah Apart from.
Speaker 2:He's like five inches taller.
Speaker 1:Well, henry Cavill is no, oh.
Speaker 2:David Swaybans, but Henry Cavill's probably five inches wider.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is true. This is true. I think he's meant to be 6'5 and Cavill 6'4 oh yeah, that looked pretty impressive.
Speaker 2:I didn't realise he was that tall yeah, because Christopher Reeve was what 6'3. Dean Cain was short, wasn't he?
Speaker 1:in comparison, and the other one on Arrow it was a thing of me. The chap from Lewis and Superman. Yeah, the latest one. Yeah, you know Cavalier's taller, I think he's like six, one or two. So yeah, this the new chap is the biggest of Superman fair enough, deadpool on that exciting note of who who's the? Taller Superman. Who's the?
Speaker 2:biggest Deadpool, wolverine trailer was out, wasn't it? Yes, it looks what you kind of expect, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:I'm excited for it.
Speaker 2:Well, there's supposed to be this cameo's glory, because isn't your mate supposed to be in it? Oh, swifty, taylor Swift's supposed to be in it, oh swifty taylor.
Speaker 1:Swift supposed to be dazzling. If every, if everyone who's meant to have a cameo has a cameo in it.
Speaker 2:It's only seven years long, yeah but it's all the randoms you can see in the trailer. People have picked it apart and it's all the ones from the fox universe which I can understand, and apparently it's gonna be multiple wolverines. Henry cavill is supposed to be one of the Wolverines, if you believe some of the rumours. Daniel Radcliffe is supposed to be one of the Wolverines. If you believe that, who?
Speaker 1:knows.
Speaker 2:Who knows, but it's really the only Marvel thing out this year. The only Marvel thing anyone cares about. Yeah, and it's going to be the Guardians 3. It's the only thing that's actually going to do any good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, welcome to new.
Speaker 2:Marvel. It's not part of the mold.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So talking about who knows, let's jump right in, because we've got two episodes to talk about, that's why we're going to jump straight in and get it done. Why is there a?
Speaker 2:release two. Well, disney, it's Hang on, hang on. Before we start, I need to transfer to review mode. For those of you not watching listening, I have deployed the old man yells at cloud background.
Speaker 1:Do you think we might yell at some?
Speaker 2:clouds Tim. Well, I'm pre-empting it by putting that up. I might have to take it down. You never know yeah.
Speaker 1:The fact that I texted you before this podcast was recorded and just said I have thoughts, I have questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, they released two because it's Disney and it's BBC and it's why not? Oh, I know why. Football. I bet you they're trying to squeeze it in before the start of the Euros, which probably happens mid to late June. So I bet you they've had to squeeze it in before football starts.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. That would be what it is. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:That would be why.
Speaker 1:Us cynics. I don't know what you mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I bet it'll be the first match we'll kick off 14th of June. Bang on, there you go. That's why they've added two episodes, because they've got to get it in in a month. Well, there we go.
Speaker 1:Fully researched. We are Fully researched.
Speaker 2:So, episode one, series one Space babies, babies, space babies. I have written notes one series, one space babies, space babies.
Speaker 1:I have written notes.
Speaker 2:I have a notepad. I have an iPhone, yeah this is how professional I wanted to do my notes start with simply exposition dump.
Speaker 1:So if you've never watched Doctor who before, you have now.
Speaker 2:I would go even further than that and say this entire episode was an expedition dump. This is the reason why this episode oh, I see you, b, I I'm with you now yeah, not just the first five minutes, the whole episode was just. Yeah, if you've never watched, doctor who, we're going to explain it to you and fitting a story around why we're explaining it to you yes, this is true.
Speaker 1:This is true. Um, I love the fact that I started with running down corridors, because the classic doctor who trope of we run down corridors now yeah, that's what we do um, it did. I did realize something watching these first episodes the whole doctor phone thing where they have the connection to current day. Oh yeah, yeah. How the hell does that actually work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's always been a trope, hasn't it? They'd always phone home. It would always work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she goes. Oh, you've been gone 10 minutes I'm going so does that timeline advance with how long you've been actually gone, or I don't understand how this works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just I hate it that, that yeah, if you start opening your mind to the concept of time travel in that scenario yeah just you can't, because they come and go at the point they leave and it's. It doesn't really work but the time's still advancing, but it's not advancing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's bizarre, because that means they're aging, but they're not aging yeah, and like if you, if you come back when you leave, you've made phone calls in the future that haven't happened yet, but you're still there and the phone doesn't work. The phone shouldn't work, the phone should go. Oh, I hate the phone? Well, I never realized I hated the phone shouldn't work the phone should go well. I never realized I hate the phone until now I hate the phone.
Speaker 2:They've all done it, though. Over there I'm sure they've done it and it's not with Rose and we did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's instantly you.
Speaker 2:You mentioned Rose. We're going to jump around a lot in this we'll try and stick to. But this episode and I understand why was it was like a facsimile of rose kind of, but maybe rose episode and the one where they went to the end of the world. It was all kind of mashed together but there were lots of tropes in it that I'm thinking.
Speaker 2:I've been here before, now I know why, because they're trying to reintroduce it, but it felt very, very similar, like the bit where she stood in front of the window and the window looked out of space yeah I've seen that before and I just thought, yeah, I could see what he's trying to do, but it's very similar.
Speaker 1:Rereading my notes, I've written the same line 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 lines. I think I hate space babies. I hate them. I can't quite put into words how much I detect them and want to hurt them. I just just, oh god, every time I'm on screen I'm going to change the channel. I just can't, I just cannot deal with this. Just what is this? It was so much.
Speaker 2:It was weird in the sense that the CGI look shit with their word weird mouths and it was just like this is weird, and the baby talk.
Speaker 1:I hate them, I hate them, I hate them so much.
Speaker 2:And also linked with that, I got annoyed. I got really annoyed with the amount of time he just kept saying surprise babies in. That really animated voice over and over again and it was like yeah, we know that, yeah, you've got excited once.
Speaker 1:But by the fifth time I was like, just just just, by the second time I'm thinking can I change the channel please? And so what's something else? Because I hate, I hate the babies the concept of this episode didn't land.
Speaker 2:It felt like the moffat. We've got a dinosaur in victorian london. Now let's build a story around it. We've got babies in space talk at you like uh, what's the phone called?
Speaker 1:I've missed the the beginning thing. Um, do you think like who's talking? Yeah, that's it, that kind of thing. But like the the opening thing was explaining time travel oh, oh they said oh, I'm a lizard person, now all right, cool oh no, I can bring things back to life. Yeah but I, I, oh, but then. But then they undo it in the very next episode when you go oh, I just changed the entire thing. Ah, why haven't I disappeared because you're with me? But then that shouldn't work.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, you're right there I hadn't considered that, that actually they contradicted themselves in the space of two hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hadn't even realised it until I started saying it and suddenly went wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2:Oh, there's another thing where they contradict themselves and I'm going to come to that later. But I hadn't considered that I was just sitting there going how much budget did they spend on that one scene? And they're never going to come back to it.
Speaker 1:You just think they've got loads of money. Now they're just.
Speaker 2:They're just pouring that money down the toilet, aren't they? And they do crap cgi. Oh, again, it's like the uh dr donna squashed in the tunnel thing, where the bodies are all flat it was like really good space outside cgi but the close quarter cgi was still hokey, and this was another one where you had the really cool space station and all that, but inside that close-quarters stuff it was just like old-school BBC Doctor who.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I fear by the time we get to episode one we're already going to be cancelled. So episode two's going to be hilarious. Oh well, yeah.
Speaker 2:What else have I got?
Speaker 1:they've doubled down on this timeless child, haven't they god?
Speaker 2:as soon as you said, I went oh this is going to be grim, isn't it christmas?
Speaker 2:and I've got to hark back to my reaction to the christmas episode quite a lot during this review. I was all for giving it the benefit of the doubt. Oh, okay, okay, no, no, I'm sorry, I've changed my mind. I'm allowed to change my mind. They've doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down on it and actually, listening to some of the interviews, it is the theme of this series is the idea of being alone and being left, because obviously she's will come to her in a minute, but the concept of her is mirroring him. Yeah, but it's just like oh yes, I was left.
Speaker 2:But again, contradiction ahoy. Or later on second second episode, they contradicts himself by saying about how he's a time lord and time lords were different and stuff like that. But you've just said you weren't a time lord. You can't be both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't, yeah you can't be a time lord and also you can't like like embellish the fact that you're a time lord when you've already Lords if you're not a Time Lord. And also you can't embellish the fact that you're a Time Lord when you've already said that you're proud not to be a Time Lord.
Speaker 1:And then in the exhibition he's going oh, I've got two hearts, because Time Lords have two hearts, and you're going, but you're not a Time Lord, so do they have two hearts just because you do?
Speaker 2:And I just hate it, I hate everything, I hate everybody, because you didn't see that, except for when you cried on a YouTube video that we had to block out. The reason the Time Lords had two hearts is because he had two hearts, because they stole all his stuff, all his genetics. So the fact they've doubled down on it is just. They could have just left it, and I was going to give the benefit of doubt because, like I said, I stand by. I quite enjoyed the christmas episode that they could have got rid of it in the in the 60th with the toy maker, but they didn't. They decided to run with it and, oh dear, we're never getting the end of it. It's just every, every opportunity. I'm on my own.
Speaker 2:Yeah we know, Get over it. Yeah, I wrote. Timeless child rammed down our throats.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mine says that they've doubled down on the timeless child crap.
Speaker 2:Shall we get the other crowbar ideas out of the way now, because they really runned in some of the social commentary. We'll call it that.
Speaker 1:Is this the abortion?
Speaker 2:metaphor Abortion refugees. They used to do it so well where they used to just reference stuff and it would flow, but it was just like massive rusty crowbar to get that concept of abortion in and also to get, I remember watching this, because I watched it a whole hour ago.
Speaker 1:Um, and just going, america's gonna hate this.
Speaker 2:They're just gonna absolutely hate it yeah, it's, it's so unsubtle really I think that's it it's just kind of just do it. If you're gonna do it, do it. In a way it's like it reminded me of oh you probably wouldn't seen it the jodie whittaker episode where it was they, it was all to do, they were on earth but they didn't know they're on earth and it was environmental disaster and it was just. It was awfully like, really size 12 booted into the storyline. It was really degraded and again the concept that it's only like a one-liner.
Speaker 1:But it was like oh, we're going down the track, To be fair, if we're going to get ourselves cancelled by doing this podcast. I think this series is for American audiences. Oh yeah, Because the subtlety of a classic British TV show has gone. No, unfortunately, here's a 12 gauge kind of thing. Have it on your face.
Speaker 2:It wasn't needed. I lost the concept of what the babies were there for even before all that quite early on, because I was like creepy babies, the story both of them were going at such a fast pace that I lost especially the babies. One lost a grip on why they were there and I was like, oh, hang on, why Step back a bit, why are we here?
Speaker 1:It was going so quickly but that's the trouble with me in general. I just didn't care. I looked at the babies and went I hate these, I want them to be destroyed, please remove them from my Facebook is. I just didn't care. I looked at the babies and went I hate these, I want them to be destroyed, please remove them from my site. And I just couldn't buy into anything from that point the whole. I just went oh, just what is this crap?
Speaker 2:Oh dear. Yeah, it was. I read one of those non-spoilery. So the press are loving it and they think it's amazing, but I can't remember what I think it might be. The guardian gave it three stars and they very in a. We still love it but we don't like it, kind of way. Kind of basically said this is an episode in a couple of weeks you're going to forget it's one of those doctors.
Speaker 2:It's a throwaway doctor episode, isn't it? You always get a couple of series. You used to always get a couple of series that you just kind of go oh I forgot about that one, and I think that's it for example no, you don't, you're never going to forget that. Yeah, for the wrong reasons, but yeah, you kind of it was a throwaway filler, one that would normally come between a two-parter and the series finale. It just be kind of sat there and it would just absorb space.
Speaker 1:But the stupid thing is, it's a season opener. Yeah Well, it isn't. It's episode two.
Speaker 2:As you pointed out, the Christmas episode wasn't a Christmas episode, it was a season opener. So it's yeah, no. I think you've actually hit the nail on the head. When we first started this, it was an expedition dump to explain to the fans who've never seen it before what Doctor who is, what it's about, and a little bit of a reminder about Ruby and her mystery, because we're not going to forget that any time soon.
Speaker 1:And that's all it was.
Speaker 2:My notes actually, oh, the only thing that got me right at the end, obviously. Now, hang on which one. Was it the end of the space babies when they went back to see Ruby's mum, or was that the end of the maestro episode?
Speaker 2:that was the space babies cracking the ceiling had been fixed. It was Christmas day, they landed and the big crack that had gone all the way down the hallway on Christmas Eve had gone, and she and they explicitly complained about it. And they said how am I going to get someone to fix this on Christmas Eve? And it and they explicitly complained about it in the episode how am I going to get someone to fix this on Christmas Eve? And it had gone and plastered over all in literally 24 hours.
Speaker 1:And the fact that the team still he's also destroyed their kitchen.
Speaker 2:I didn't mind that, but I thought they were going to reference the crack in the ceiling. When they had a crack in the ceiling and I was waiting for it.
Speaker 1:I've just had that, but it didn't come as that. Yeah, who needs continuity? Yeah, who needs continuity? My one of my notes simply says oh god, ruby's gonna be another rose slash amy, isn't she?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, yeah, we're, we'll come to that in the next one, but no, she is super companion. Uh, no doubt. No doubt about the sonic screwdriver.
Speaker 1:It's a break.
Speaker 2:Someone likened it to a mid-2000s universal remote for TVs, and they're probably right. It's one of those things you used to buy that you could like yeah, it does need a break, though, but then it was overused during Matt Smith's era, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:And it was overused. Well, the fact that he walks into a alien spacecraft, he's oh, don't worry, just add that in there. That's fixed, mate, don't worry about it, it's all stories so I heard of him too.
Speaker 2:I think it was probably barry, let's turn sticks or somebody who said they actually wrote out the sonic screwdriver because it was becoming too easy for the doctor to get out of situations. And I'll be fair, I think rtd, when he first brought back doctor who brought it back because he said because the episodes were so short in comparison ie one episode, 40 minutes, whatever he brought it back to speed it up. But I think, like you said, it's got far too easy now and he was actually quite cool, wasn't it? The christmas episode when he's a sonic screwdriver didn't work and that was a cool concept and I think we even talked about it at the time. That was interesting because it's never been done before in that context. But now it was back and it was like, oh okay yeah, it's just.
Speaker 1:Oh, look, here's a spaceship like it in sorted mate, don't worry about it. The whole, yeah, um, the the snot monster.
Speaker 2:Clever concept. Clever concept. I give the. It's like the yeah, the literal sense of that.
Speaker 1:I confess the whole thing of when it's in the airlock and they're doing an alien's rip-off. Oh yeah, yeah, I was going. That's not how airlock and they're doing an aliens rip-off. Oh yeah, yeah, I was going. That's not how airlocked or gravity works, literally Just this is not how this works. This is not how anything works.
Speaker 2:You could say that about a lot of films, though, so I kind of let it off. I think for me that was interesting because it was obviously trying to show that side of the doctor who doesn't let people die for dying's sake.
Speaker 1:That's how I viewed it as.
Speaker 2:He wanted to save it because it was a unique organism, it was alive, it was living, and he shouldn't just kill things for the sake of killing things. However, the concept got lost because you could see that working in a smith tenant capaldi maybe not capaldi, but those two era and he would have bollocked that woman for trying to kill it. He didn't do that. It was a throwaway concept and it was lost because of the speed everything was moving at.
Speaker 1:I thought and also the fact it then starts howling randomly what was that?
Speaker 2:why is it howling?
Speaker 1:why is it still not trying to kill everybody? Because it's still the same monster. Fair point. So many things again victory via fart, oh wait this is, we've just been reduced to fart gag. Poor child humor, but but then they make a preference. No, oh yeah, they make a point of saying this space station has no engines in any way, shape or form, so we've propelled to station at x speed in space at a planet. Awesome, I hope I've got stopping it because you just find the space station at a planet.
Speaker 2:I didn't get it at the time, but when you started talking I was like, of course, physics, how are they going to stop?
Speaker 1:yeah, it can't stop. It has no engines. They've just fired the space station at a planet.
Speaker 2:How do you deal with?
Speaker 1:refugee crisis. Blow it up, apparently. Oh god, I hate it just every. Oh, just so, I think we're we've started well. Blow it up, apparently. Oh God, I hate it Just every.
Speaker 2:So I think we're We've started well. I haven't got any more notes on here.
Speaker 1:No, literally every line was I hate the babies, I hate the babies, I hate the babies. But every other point I've now gone through, I've just gone.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'd go off just rage so I watch it with my son. So views of 8 year old. So this is going to be a new segment Views of an 8 year old. He wasn't scared, he just was like he didn't like the CGI babies either. He just didn't like them. He said that's just weird and I was like I know, why have they done this? He said how do babies know what a hug is if they've never had any parents? And I was like actually very good point. How do they know what love is Because they've not had any adults? So their concept, even though they're super advanced, but they've had this nanny disembodied thing, a woman in a shed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the whole thing you're going. Well, how do they know anything? But then they know how to uh like the nose blowing thing. Okay, okay, there's a little machine that does it, but these machines are all literally like laces and like yeah the concept of if you start opening your mind.
Speaker 2:it works I think that's the whole episode. He kind of got the concept of it Also why the remote control pushchairs?
Speaker 1:Where did they come from? Here's a super-thin buggy, but I'm going to fix the station with a straw and a piece of string. Great, oh god. I hate it, sorry.
Speaker 2:Shall we move on, shall we move on.
Speaker 1:I don't want to.
Speaker 2:Because the next one gets more entertaining. So episode 2, the Devil's Chord Thoughts on this one Breaking the fourth wall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought that was fun. I think the idea is to say that this is a interdimensional, extra-planar entity that's outside of the normal constraints and you go. That makes sense, and I thought Maestro was great and the person that plays him was really good. You'll give me a look if you don't agree, tim. No, I Well, I'm going to clarify that. For the type of role and the over-the-top campiness that it required, I thought it worked quite well. However, the third act then fell apart completely.
Speaker 2:Jinx monsoon, this episode had the germ of a really good story and it's one of those episodes with doctor who and he's made it with doctor who that I think, oh, this is really good. And then it falls apart and it becomes naff.
Speaker 1:And I get.
Speaker 2:It's like the Iron man 3 concept Really really good idea, and I get more annoyed and angry because of how lost opportunity, of how good it could have been and the concept was good but the execution wasn't very good. Jinx Monsoon I like Jinx Monsoon. I thought the character was over the top and too campy. If the character had been creepy and just a bit weird it would have worked better. But she didn't do anything other than just shout and that just kind of just kind. She didn't even I don't know, she didn't even act. I don't think it just felt really like OTT. There was no substance. It was all kind of bluster To start with, you kind of go yeah, but that's all it was. It was a one-trick pony, it was just this shouty person.
Speaker 2:I would have preferred creepy. Creepy like proper kind of like make your skin crawl.
Speaker 2:Creepy yeah I know, obviously, what they were trying to do. I also thought the concept of the character didn't, the character didn't. It could be because of the time they had and the way they went about it, but I didn't get the threat. Okay, she kind of attacked a couple of old people with notes and attacked them, but didn't the consequence to it, I don't know. It felt disjointed, Like this is the end of the world because no one likes music. But was that because of her? Did she do that? I don't know. I just didn't like the portrayal of the character.
Speaker 1:Concept, yes, Portrayal no, yeah, it's one of those things where you go, yes, you can see the concept of a really good idea and it just falls flat. I thought the Sonic having a mute button was really funny. That was rude and really cool.
Speaker 2:The way they did it as well was nice and you kind of sat there and went, ooh, that's really well done. Little tweaks like that were really well done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the fact that this is a descendant of the Toy Masters. You're going. This is a descendant of the toy masters. You're going. This is a power level that is sorry. You just lose to this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the concept obviously, the toy master. This was the first episode. It hasn't been two. Well, there's been three. This was the first one where I kind of sat there and went this isn't your dad's doctor who anymore, is it?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:No, this was not sci-fi, which he's already said they're not going to do but this was the first episode where things as a viewer weren't really explained how things have happened. Normally with Doctor who, you get a concept of this is how it's happened, this is why it's happened and this is how things have gone. But this it was just left. It's done. The you didn't even see, just the concept was left to the imagination. That and so this kind of I can see this change happen, especially in this one, the goblin one, not so much because of the way it was done, but you could link it to that one.
Speaker 2:The one previous one was just in space wasn't really sci-fi. This was yeah, this is on earth, but it ain't sci-fi. It's not because in the old who and I'm going to reference that anything pre this you'd had an alien who could take away music. That would be their power, wouldn't it? That's what they would do. They'd live off music. But no, this was a god. This is very fantasy, so we don't have to explain it, you just have to accept it. Does that make?
Speaker 1:sense, yeah, and I think isn't it a new idea set Because if you have an alien, you go, you go. Well, an alien's got rules, so I can just go, yeah, press the start button, defeat that, yeah, whereas if you're dealing with a, an extra planner, being that the rules don't work, the whole idea of yep, you can trick them once and they don't work anymore and you think, oh, oh God, how do we deal with that? But then, like I said in this, I think the whole third act just whoa.
Speaker 2:It fell off a cliff a little bit, didn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like I said, I think they had a great idea that just didn't stick to landing because you go. Okay, so you take the music away and, like the Beatles doing like jingles, you go, oh yeah that's just.
Speaker 2:It was interesting because I can't remember what song they licensed, but they must have the money. They licensed one of the songs to license the Beatles songs. But it was kind of like a first ever Doctor who episode, ever that they've done with the Beatles in it and they wasted them, ever that they've done with the Beatles in it and they wasted them. It was just like, oh yeah, there's the Beatles. And then they popped up at the end. I'll come to the end in a minute. The guys don't know anything like the Beatles.
Speaker 2:Well, out of the two. Whoever was Ringo? I suppose he's true to form. Ringo just is blurred in the background. But George Harrison, come on. He was arguably one of the better songwriters out of all three of them. Uh, but yeah, it was kind of a bit of a waste. It was kind of like we've got them there and then we're not going to use them.
Speaker 1:Really it was and actually, if the whole concept is music's a bit weird and no one likes it, why are there bands?
Speaker 2:yeah, the whole. Are they recording music? Yeah, the whole. Like it? Yeah what?
Speaker 1:yeah, the whole premise. As soon as you start thinking about it, falls apart horrible yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:This might be the theme of this. This whole doctor who's yeah. As soon as you start thinking about it, it all just collapses.
Speaker 1:You know to little yeah, the fact that no one hums, you just go. Well, if no one hums, why would you then be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh God, it's blown my mind why have you got a music studio dedicated to recording music if no one's allowed to record music? But the thing is, I lost the track of whether it's people were scared not to do music, because when she popped out the piano and started killing the old lady, it felt to me, due to their reactions, that they were scared to do the music. Now, that would have been a better concept if you had a creepy villain who was going around killing people who were playing music. That would be kind of weird all the it's worth in my head. Like old bloke walking down the street starts to whistle and then stops himself but it's too late and this little creepy thing comes out of the shadows and kills him. Whoa, that'd be really weird, like the concept of you can't whistle, you can't hum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but also what? What's the definition of music? Because you've got a band recording what is technically a song, playing instruments which is music. It's awful, but it's music and when did maestro do all this?
Speaker 2:did it imply that they did it in the past? Not in the 60s so as music just disappeared again it was so disjointed. I like the concept, I really like the concept, but it just didn't feel right.
Speaker 1:And also, if they did it in the 20s, you've got a whole Second World War to get through. And if the whole idea was, oh, music kind of is a bit of hope and it's all gone a bit dark and horrible, just did it take time to filter through or what, and why did it?
Speaker 2:take that long to get to the 2024?
Speaker 1:If it took 100 years. Yeah, cool, whatever, that's fine. Give us some rules, give us some context.
Speaker 2:Because it took until 2024 for the world to end. So, yeah, the idea was good, but I got annoyed by it towards the end because I was. It was like this is slowly not what I thought it was going to be. Uh, what else have I written here? Oh, here we go. Here we go. Are we seeing? And and I know there was a reason for it in the first episode are we seeing? This doctor is the scaredy doctor, Because he ran away in the first episode. Now that was explained as the bogey thing was resonating at a certain frequency and this thing he ran away from her without even stopping to talk to her. Now I know he said, oh, this is an old god, but the thing is for me, he didn't explain it. This is the one time in Doctor who where an expedition dump would have helped because, I was like Ruby was.
Speaker 2:Well, you're supposed to be the cleverest person, why have you just suddenly run away and hid from something? Why and he didn't say why it was a throw away line? There should have been a bit of back and forth at that point, or a show of power, like physical show of power, where she did something for him to go. Oh, I can't fight this, but he just ran away, he just ran away, he just ran away, but then later on he wasn't running away.
Speaker 2:But the runaway theme is slowly becoming already in two episodes has become a theme.
Speaker 1:But also if you go back to older, like old, New who and old who, they fight gods and things all the time and go. Yeah, I got this it's not a problem yeah, look at things like the um satan pistol. That way you go. Yep, it's basically the devil.
Speaker 2:All right, cool, I'll have you mate, yeah and uh, seventh doctor and uh, playing the game of chess over time and space, and it says all that kind of stuff. Yeah, not necessarily that scared. And he referenced oh what did I write it down because it did make me chuckle. He, he said about fighting, it took everything out of me. I was literally splitting half to defeat the toy maker. Nope, you played a game of catch with a ball and you tricked him. It didn't kill you, he split you in half, he shot you with a laser is the reason why the actual concept of you fighting him was after that.
Speaker 2:So no, uh so the theme is jodie whittaker's doctor was the not the cleverest person in the room and he seems to be the scaredest person in the room.
Speaker 1:And that's not gonna end well.
Speaker 2:Nope, he's continuously running away from things because he's like oh, it's the old gods, speaking of which we got the Bad Wolf mention again about. I wrote it down the oldest one is coming Da-da-da. And also when Ruby was all chained up and then the song came through from Christmas and she was all freaked out, wasn't she? Oh my God, what's this? What's this? And then Doctor scanning her DNA in the TARDIS. So, like you said, she's going to be someone super powerful.
Speaker 1:She's going to be the daughter of. Admittedly, as soon as that scene came on, my notes would be saying oh fuck off, bloody Ruby. I'm just the whole thing. I'm just going. I hate the concept already. I'm just going. This is Rose and Amy all over again. Just give us some, just let us have a companion.
Speaker 2:It over again. Just give us something, just let us have a companion. It's a bloody companion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not a lint into a pot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because even Donna disappeared down that hole eventually. I don't think there's been. Let's go through New who Rose no. Martha Saved the world. She ended up being normal, but she still ended up doing something great. Donna, Amy Pond no no. Clara, no.
Speaker 1:We don't talk about Clara.
Speaker 2:Even well. Bill was only in it for a year, one season. Just ended up becoming a celestial being or something. But no, there's not really been any. Why can't it just be normal people that just do normal stuff and just leave it like that? So my prediction is she'll be the daughter.
Speaker 2:Now the thing is this is an interesting thing why? Now I know why because we've seen it on screen, but there seems to be a fuss about who her mother is, but it never mentions who her father is. So surely we're going to find out the parents of this kid. Why is the mother more important than the father? Because I was thinking, oh, she's going to be daughter of the god. She might end up being, like I don't know, athena or Aphrodite or some kind of daughter of Zeus. That would be awesome, but I don't think we're going to get that. We're going to get something where she's the daughter of some old god. We'd be surprised if it plays off the Zeus concept of gods coming down to Earth and procreating and stuff like that. But she's going to end up being daughter of some uber god, isn't she? And that'll be how it ends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why she's only going to be one season.
Speaker 2:I think I read somewhere this week that the new companion is actually in this season as well. Yet to be believed about that. I've got some more notes because the biggest contradiction came and went. Even my son picked up on this one.
Speaker 1:So the doctor in this.
Speaker 2:This episode refers to himself as the last of the time lords and my son said no, he's not, the other one's sitting in the garden. And he's right. Yeah, yeah. You can't say oh, that's a different timeline because he goes. You can't say that's a different timeline because he goes, because he. They actually said it when Ruby rang her mum up and also when they went back to June 2024. And that is the same timeline because we know that Rose, donna's daughter, is going to be in this series. So we are in 2024 and the doctor sitting in the garden at Rose's house in 2024.
Speaker 1:So he's not the last of the Time Lords.
Speaker 2:So he can't. 2024. So he's not the last of the time lords, so he can't, even though he's not a time door. We've already gone over that.
Speaker 1:They've contradicted themselves because he's not the last of the time, lords because there's two of them in the same timeline.
Speaker 2:If you add an rtd throwaway line, there's infinite doctors yeah but this, because that's the thing, because my son also and this is the concept they've still shot themselves in the foot is when you saw the blurred image, or obviously was john lennon walking towards the piano. He said, oh, that's the other doctor coming to save him. So obviously he's only got that concept of what you see. Yeah, but they've buried themselves with that concept of having tenants, doctors, still hanging about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because even I thought myself now it wouldn't no. Or what was going to be the palace doctor, because obviously I'm down the road at thingy road and I'm too late.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he's not the last of the Time Lords. Speaking of which, that was referencing, obviously, when the Master killed them, he said in this one oh, it was a genocide over time and space, but they killed them in all places. I thought he just killed, destroyed Gallifrey and just turned them all into cyber Time Lords. But again, going back to what we said at the start, we've now reset everything to how it was in 2005. Time Lords are all dead. He's the last of the Time Lords. We've got a big bad which is referenced every week, and she was in it. Did you spot the old lady behind the counter when they went and bought tea in the cafeteria?
Speaker 2:The lady behind the counter was the lady who shouted at What's-Her-Face in the bar, and she was Newton's assistant. It's that same lady, again, newton's assistant. It's that same lady again, hands on. She's going to be Zeus, or whatever. I'm going to call it Zeus until we know what it is. But no, he's not the last of the time, because he's sat in a garden drinking tea what else? Did I write down a musical number at the end yep why the?
Speaker 1:singing.
Speaker 2:Kill it with fire goblins didn't mind it, liked it. This felt like they needed it. It would have been better if they'd sung it to a Beatles song. They paid the royalties and just had them had the Beatles in the studio playing whatever while they were recording and they just did a dance number to that, or just had Ruby and the Doctor dancing to that Would have been quite cool, but it's just a weird weird concept Also with the whole suspension of disbelief thing, when they walk across the Abbey Road crossing and it lights up like a bloody piano.
Speaker 1:Okay, really, yeah, okay. So if my true is an extra planet being related to the toy master, the whole wiggly, wiggly, double tardis nonsense. Um, yeah, great it just oh, I hate it. I hate every second of it, the whole. We got to the third act and I went. I'm done. I think as soon as Ruby was suspended in the notes, which became a bit weird. Anyway, as soon as Ruby was suspended in the notes and the Christmas song came on, I went no, I'm done, I'm out. I just didn't care anymore.
Speaker 2:I forgot everything. Yeah, I wrote the whole confrontation between the villain and Doctor who. You always used to look forward to that because it was always quite a nice scenery, chewing kind of thing, where they bounced off each other and there was a war of words, the threats and stuff like that. But it was just weird and Love or Hater Jinx monsoon wasn't acting, she was just being really I don't know, it just didn't. Maybe it was supposed to in the spirit of the episode, it was supposed to be different, but it just came across it was again because it was a good concept, it was a wasted opportunity and it was just corny.
Speaker 1:Also, didn't Multiverse Madness do it better? I was thinking that, yeah, I was expecting, wait a minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this has been done before, because we've already had this. Yeah, exactly, I had that as well.
Speaker 1:And this is a problem. You go well. Was it a new idea? Or have you just borrowed a part of a marvel film and done it worse?
Speaker 2:god, that sounds so. No, it was. I just feel a bit depressed. That's exactly. I came out of it. I watched it at lunch time and for the whole of the afternoon I was really kind of like, because I've already watched some of the reviews online and the people that are going to hate it are going to hate it, and I've also read some of the and this is the problem in this day and age, when you because it happened with what did it happen with oh Disney, with Star Wars, obi-wan? Prior to it coming out, there was lots of backlash against the fans in articles saying if you don't like this, you're a racist. You don't like this, you're a homophobe, and I'm starting to see it with doctor who, even before it came out, it's like oh, and this normally doesn't bode well if they're expecting backlash before you've even seen the episode.
Speaker 2:I was like no, no, no, no, going to give it benefit out, but Rotten Tomatoes is exactly how you'd expect 100% critics, 32% audience score. Ratings will be interesting, but I think we've already established that ratings don't count anymore, so I'm not prepared to say that's a barometer the.
Speaker 1:The problem I've got is like, I think, watching who? Now, especially with the podcast, effectively we have become critics to watch it. We're watching it with that critical eye and it's going oh, am I actually enjoying this? If I didn't have to watch it because I'm going to record a podcast about it, would I have finished the episode? And, in all honesty, the Space Babies no, I was in the first paper going nope, I'm out. It would have just been. No, I'm done, mate, I just don't care about this. It was, and this is my problem. Am this? It was, it was and this is my problem. Am I watching it because I enjoy it or am I watching it because I'm watching it for this?
Speaker 2:well, that's how I was through whitaker. I watched it out of loyalty, not because I was enjoying it, yeah, and if watching something that we're a fan of is a chore, that's not a good sign.
Speaker 2:No, no, and I'm not, because I really enjoyed the Christmas episode and this is what depressed me and got me really confused this afternoon as well. I really enjoyed the Christmas episode. I thought it was good. I thought they bounced off each other really well. I thought he was great. I still think he's okay, but something was different and I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was. I can't put my finger on it. I need to think about. It is why what was different about the christmas episode to this? These two? He came across in these two.
Speaker 2:I wrote it down as well. What did I put? Uh, oh, it's. It was this kind of both of them, the erratic flipping from, like going from one to ten really fast, so get really excited, but there's no midway point. It's like oh, space babies. And there was a bit where she said I want to go and see the beatles. And then he went oh, it's amazing. And he was like just kind of like he's just leaping about as if he's trying too hard. But that wasn't in the christmas episode. No, I thought the christmas episode he was he, and it's probably because he wasn't in it as much.
Speaker 1:Maybe and that's probably but it was.
Speaker 2:It felt like it was dialed down and she didn't. I don't know.
Speaker 1:They felt more natural in that episode than they did in both of these episodes and I can't put my finger on why what I also noticed and I have not noticed this and other stuff he's been in when he was walking off in the tardis especially, does like a ballet strut. It's very chest out shoulders back and just now you've mentioned it I'm gonna have to look now but no, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It's, especially when he's just got his t-shirt on. It's like a strut almost, and I'm just going. I've never seen it before and it threw me and I wasn't prepared. Maybe that's how he always walks? I don't know like I said, I've not noticed it in other stuff, unless I've not noticed it, or was it just more? Could it just him on a TARDIS background? I went oh yeah, maybe I don't know interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't know because. Yeah, it probably has thrown me because I was going into it going okay, fair enough people complaining about it already these articles are out in the press. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. I like christmas. A lot of people didn't, but now it's like I don't know. I don't think I like it, but I can't put my finger on why. And I know we're only two episodes in, but actually we're already three quarters of the way, quarter of the way through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we haven't got really that long to go, so it's not got much time to bed in.
Speaker 1:The other issue I've got is would I go back and watch these episodes again?
Speaker 2:No. I've watched the Goblins one twice and that's because I really liked it. But no, I won't watch Space Babies again and the Maestro thing would annoy me because of the concept of it could have been really good. Yeah, next week's episode is the Moffat episode, isn't it?
Speaker 1:So that's either going to be really good, oh, that's a war one, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:This is the problem I'm going. It's a Moffat episode in a non-Moffat series, so it's going to be Girl in the Fireplace or Blink, or it's going to be a.
Speaker 2:Moffat episode. But don't forget you're thinking rose-tinted glasses, because since then he wrote the Abomination of Sherlock and that gradually got worse and worse, to the point where the last series was god awful he was in charge of that even he's not as good as he used to be, so I my spider sense is tingling that it might not be as good as we think it's going to be.
Speaker 1:Are our tentacles, are our spectacles? Are our spectacles? Are our tentacles, are our spectacles? Even, are our spectacles? That rose tinted, that actually those?
Speaker 2:episodes aren't that good either. No, blink is good. I've watched that numerous times and it's still good. Girl in the Fireplace. I never really liked that anyway, but that's just me.
Speaker 1:It's Sophia Miles. How can you not like it?
Speaker 2:I knew you were going to say that I always get confused, because I always thought he wrote Human Nature and stuff, but he didn't, did he? That was Paul Cornell. Yeah, let's have a quick look at what we've got. So boom, that is Stephen Moffat. 73 yards, that's what it's called. No idea what that is. Dot and bubble no idea. Brogue that's the one that might have or might not have new Captain Jack in. If it is new Captain Jack, I'm just going to go apeshit. I'm telling you.
Speaker 1:I'll be there joining you. I think, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then it's the last two episodes. Legend of Ruby Sunday, empire of Death. So we shall see.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a serious finale, isn't it? Legend of Rubeus and Death.
Speaker 2:Empire of Death, 22nd of June that's when it is on. I think we've done it. I've got nothing else on my notes.
Speaker 1:No, I just feel sad perhaps it's everyone else is wrong yeah, yeah, oh, I don't know, we'll keep watching it. I used to be it and then whatever it was changed. And now what is it is weird and scary.
Speaker 2:Weird it's scary. I've misquoted that, but you get the idea. Yeah I, I could hear you reciting I've misquoted that, but you get the idea yeah, I could hear me reciting that I don't know. I'm genuinely depressed because it's something I was really looking forward to and now it's kind of oh god, please.
Speaker 1:I think if when we get the recast Captain Jack, because it's coming, yeah, based on this series, so far it's coming.
Speaker 2:It's just going to be nuclear. I said that he wouldn't do that to John Barrowman, but I've got a horrible feeling he's going to do it. I've got a horrible feeling.
Speaker 2:It's going to be some kind of multiverse thing where that's Captain Jack from another universe or something weird, or at a push it'll be another time agent, but it'll have all the same characteristics as Captain Jack, but not like tortured Captain Jack, captain John, it'll be Captain Bob or something like that. But it'll be basically a clone of Captain Jack, and without the dying thing. That's the saving grace If they're going with Cannon, he can't die, so he can't look like another bloke unless he's the face of Bo. But they're going to do it, they're going to recast him and that will be the nail in the coffin for me and I will get really pissed off.
Speaker 1:I think this is a thing we're going we are building up to a nuclear explosion of us going. Are we actually Doctor who fans anymore? And I think this is the problem, this is a oh God.
Speaker 2:there's something I don't want to think of.
Speaker 1:Well, this is the thing. This has been a part of both of our lives for a long kin time and actually, jeez, actually are we still fans of this?
Speaker 2:I think at some point during this season, we might be asking you that question Are we going to have like an existential crisis where we step away? Oh jeez, I want to think about that.
Speaker 1:But all joking aside, like I said, watch Ricker out of loyalty. If I, if you weren't doing a podcast, I would have turned that crap off yeah, it's like a poet. It's not good is it, yeah, it'll be fine, it'll be better, it'll win me back. Come on, rcd, don't let me down. It's gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine, it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine, it's going to be fine. You do realise that the GIF profile picture now is going to be Abe Simpson doing this. Why?
Speaker 2:I have to change it just for the next month.
Speaker 1:Yeah, welcome to Old Men.
Speaker 2:Shutter Clouds. I had it ready but I didn't think I'd have to deploy it. But yeah, I'm going to have to. It was deployed.
Speaker 1:When did we become Old Men I?
Speaker 2:don't know Worlds have passed us by. Yeah, at least we recognise it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm just sitting here feeling really depressed.
Speaker 2:Please end on a high note. What's the high note of? What's the good thing that's happened in Doctor who? What's the positives?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:On that note we should go away and wait till next week.
Speaker 1:So boom next week and yeah, interesting to see what that looks like yeah, listeners, if you listen quietly, you just hear a sobbing on the wind.
Speaker 2:It's just us it's not jinx monsoon, it's just us, yeah crying yeah yeah, just ask her what is this?
Speaker 1:what do we do anymore? Who am I?
Speaker 2:what's the point? Yeah, do I have a point? Do I have a purpose?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah what was your purpose to pull that up? Great, that's a Rick and Morty reference. Sorry, I don't have any more right on that note. We shall say cheerio goodbye.