Journeys in Fandom
Step into the world of fandom with Matt and Tim as they take you on a wild ride through the pop culture universe. This isn't just any podcast - it's a journey with two mates who are unapologetically passionate about all things comics, film, TV and more.
Journeys in Fandom
Doctor Who: The Church on Ruby Road Review
Ever find yourself split down the middle about a Doctor Who Christmas special? Buckle up because that's precisely what happened in our latest podcast episode! While Tim was enchanted by the holiday narrative, complete with timey-wimey surprises, Matt was left craving a more traditional festive vibe. Together, we hotly debate the special's strengths and pitfalls, from the impressive ensemble cast to the polarizing plot manoeuvres. And don't get us started on what truly makes a Doctor Who Christmas episode stand out—we've got opinions!
Join us as we navigate the whirlwind of the new Doctor's sartorial choices and the delightful conundrum of Ruby. We're crossing our fingers she won't eclipse the storyline as we dissect her potential–as well as the enigmatic Mrs Flood, who's serving up a hefty slice of Time Lord intrigue. Plus, we tip our hats to the show's hat-tip to... well, hats. And that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding our musings on creature effects and the implications of Disney's golden touch on the Whoniverse.
Hello, merry Christmas and a happy new year, and welcome to episode 15 of Jetties in Fandom.
Speaker 2:We're back again to talk about Doctor who.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're on the Doctor who wagon train thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Festive train, yeah, and this kind of post-Christmas by energy levels are flatlining at the moment, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what day of the week is it? Who am I? Where am I? What bean needs to go out?
Speaker 1:Well, I hope everyone had a good Christmas. It was one of those things, it kind of went nothing eventful as to what we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2:I think this is true. They always go by too quickly. It's all a build up and suddenly it's done. And if you're disappointed afterwards?
Speaker 1:Yeah, hmm, it's good.
Speaker 2:It's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say there's probably a comedic euphemism there, but we won't go down there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is a family show.
Speaker 2:I thought you might like that darling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right then. So we've not, apart from one sharing of theory, we've not conferred at all about our thoughts about this episode. I have no idea whether the fists are going to be raised to the clouds or not. Yeah, so we shall see. Shall we jump right in then? Church on Ruby Road.
Speaker 2:It was an episode of Doctor who.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this might be the first time that we differ, because I thought it was rather good Really. In fact, I liked it a lot and I didn't think I was going to like it. Yeah, there you go, there's a shark before you.
Speaker 2:I watched it live on Christmas. Day with my partner and their family and we all got the interview win. All right, that was an episode, I guess. Is this the curse of being a critic?
Speaker 1:I don't know, because I went into it, I didn't watch it live. I watched it later because I was like, oh and. I kind of waited and I kind of went into it thinking not really on a high and probably I was actually now literally thinking back because my expectations were so low, unlike when it was the specials. I was really pleasantly surprised. Actually, it was rather good and I enjoyed it, and I've watched it twice and I enjoyed it the second time as well. So I was generally shocked by myself.
Speaker 2:Well, I thought he was great. Oh, yeah, he's brilliant. Yeah, he's, he's, he's fab. She was great, yeah, she's great as well. I think the problem I had was everything that was going to be like a twist. I went, yeah, saw that I guess even like the the bit at the end with the with the old bird.
Speaker 1:Oh, come to that in a minute, yeah, but I didn't. I didn't. I didn't see that coming at all. Maybe I'm just, maybe all my senses have been dulled over the over the course of this year, but now I didn't see that bit coming at all and I was like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:But to me it felt so obvious.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't see it. I didn't see how it. Oh yeah, this is great for once. Yeah, we have not agreed and it's completely different. No, I didn't. I stopped to be fair. If you turn your brain off, the story had loads of things, but I don't know why. But I just chose not to turn my brain off, if that makes sense, it was. It was a very slim story. There wasn't any meat to it. But no, it felt like the classic introductory episode, but done really well it could have. It was done to introduce him, her and her situation.
Speaker 2:What I really think that's my problem with it. I wanted a Christmas special.
Speaker 1:I got an introduction episode. It was kind of an introduction episode. That was a Christmas, wasn't it? Yeah, fair enough, I can see that, and it wasn't much Christmas really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted a Christmas special and it wasn't a Christmas special and I think that's my problem with it.
Speaker 1:I could see the point, yeah, whereas I was kind of like I was wanting the introduction episode and I got it. So, yeah, that's interesting, yeah, because, yeah, it wasn't. There was only the thing that she was born on Christmas Eve that made it Christmasy, wasn't it? There was no flying, flying what's it? Christmas trees? Or Santa Claus with guns, was it? There was. There's nothing like that. But then if we kind of look back and again, this is where my brain limits me, how many Christmas episodes have been? Quite few, actually. The Matt Smith ones were all Christmasy, wouldn't they?
Speaker 2:maybe one was literally called a Christmas car, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Capaldi's ones weren't as much.
Speaker 2:Ted? And what about the Titanic?
Speaker 1:one was that Christmasy. Was it set at Christmas? Because that's where Wolf was like yeah these little store at Christmas, wasn't there.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think it was. It was blockbustery, so you couldn't do as an in series episode.
Speaker 1:Fair point, fair point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, obviously that was the biggest way to wasn't it, as we found out, yeah, you, either you either lean into Christmas or you lean into blockbuster. Yeah, fair point, and I didn't do that either for this. Yeah, it was an introductory episode, which is fine, but that's. I think that was the problem. I've been thinking back. I was expecting Titanic and got a first episode of a series and I went yeah, cool, that was great.
Speaker 1:But it just wasn't.
Speaker 2:It wasn't Christmas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I could see that criticism. It's kind of you just got. It's like yeah, like we said, this episode of Christmas rather than a Christmas episode, yeah.
Speaker 2:No I.
Speaker 1:It's not going to be a positive one for a change. Yeah, normally I'm grumpy, but I had, yeah, I turned, my brain was turned off and the only thing that my brain. It's weird. I don't know what it is. Maybe I've just, I say, drunk too much. I don't know, I don't think it's a drink at Christmas. Something's changed. Am I real? Have I been replaced? I don't know. Am I a robot? Maybe I'm AI, maybe that's it. Anyway, oh, my God.
Speaker 1:My existential crisis is kind of happening live. The only thing that I couldn't turn my brain off for was how slow and we'll get to this person is. The hooded figure walked away from the church when he was there to save Ruby. She was walking very slowly and she was still there when he'd fought everything. And come back to the TARDIS and I thought that was about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, you know, because that's the same thing. But apart from that I just kind of was oblivious to everything. I was like it's quite good, Quite a lot, even like Davina McCall. I don't like Davina McCall, so I have no idea what's going on.
Speaker 2:I like the Christmas tree fallen on Davina McCall yeah, but. I thought I thought they'd just killed her live on TV, fantastic, and then we're no one going to have a damn accident.
Speaker 1:Even she didn't annoy me and I can't yeah, just can't work out why it was. I'll tell you the things I liked about it, so let's park Christmas for a second. I like the fact that the family that she's with seemed natural, because I was thinking about this today. You had Rose's family, which was okay. The first one, martha's family, was really forced and then just be written out of it. Donna's family well, you had Will's doesn't really count because he's amazing, but again you had her mum, which again was a bit forced. Clara, I don't think, had a family I can't remember because there's so many versions where I get confused.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you Clara from my brain.
Speaker 1:To be honest, she had some kind of family, I'm sure, but I can't remember. Not anyway, it's a matter of Bill didn't have a family. And then we had all the ins and outs of the really forced, awful families that you had with Whitaker. Her Ruby's family felt really natural and I could. I will look forward to seeing them again, which is unusual for me because I don't really like the hangers on. It just doesn't work for me, but that felt really good. So I was like, okay, I like these characters.
Speaker 2:The Grand would have cup of tea. Yes, I'm here for this. Just give me a series of you demanding tea.
Speaker 1:Just get all the way through. This is a running joke, yeah. So that got me. I thought also, I like the way they did the very subtle timing whimmy thing where time changed and they all become gray and just just bitter and sad, and I thought I was doing really well. So I enjoyed that family dynamic and I can see I hope we weirdly, I hope we have more earth episodes. I never, I always hate earth episodes, but now I'm like, oh, I want to see that again. That's really cool. So that was again weird. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, I like Ruby as a character as well. I think it obviously ignoring the mystery and we'll get to that, because I think there's some mysteries we need to talk about. She felt quite grounded and I don't want to go too far to that for the conversation now, but I hope she doesn't become super important like Clara. She felt grounded enough and not to know it all, which is always good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's going to get full of rows on us. We know it's going to happen.
Speaker 1:It's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:It's going to be a four rows.
Speaker 1:He won't be able to resist it. That was good and, as we said, chutey was spot on. I genuinely didn't know what I was going to, how I was going to react, because he did don't get much in that previous episode with tenant. There was enough, but there wasn't much. But he was genuinely really good. The energy coming off him. Every scene was like bang, bang, bang, but he was ultimately the most clever man in the room. But he was also really just bouncing off the walls and I just thought, yeah, I like, I like him, I like him a lot, yeah.
Speaker 2:I thought him with on the goblin ship learning like to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought, yeah, that's his eyes. We just like dusting about, weren't they yeah?
Speaker 2:This is old school doctor looking and wearing a vegetable kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, is that? Is that kind of older kind of yep? I don't know if you screwdriver.
Speaker 1:It's not really a screwdriver, it's kind of a troll.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it is what it is. They always change it, don't they? I suppose it's going to book me, from a purely purest point of view, that he's going to keep changing his costume every week. But I know they've already talked about in some of the interviews with him that that's what they wanted to do, because he's quite a style person in real life. It's fine, but each doctor should have their own costume and it can't keep changing, except for the odd one or two things when they go back in time.
Speaker 2:That's the thing he's actually doing it. In fact, he hasn't got a costume. It's going to be his costume is. He has no costume.
Speaker 1:I suppose it will make the cosplayers life hell because they'll have so many versions to have to collect all the items for. So I suppose that'd be quite funny. But no, I like his style. Yeah, that bit at the start where he's obviously observing from a distance and I'm a big fan of kilt so I don't care, but I think his style is just like, yes, really nice. I like his hat. He wore hats in Doctor who. We don't have enough hats Tom Baker used to wear hats.
Speaker 2:I've known a hat for a while.
Speaker 1:Tom Baker, Davidson and Svespikoi. We don't have a good hat, but we will just see whether we get any more hats.
Speaker 2:I can see there being a clip in this episode. We need more hats in Doctor who. We need more hats. Give me more hats. Yeah, episode title we need more hats in Doctor who.
Speaker 1:There we go. There's a cryptic one to lure people in, there's nothing. Well then we can say again it's the country of Turkey consumed.
Speaker 2:This is great.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, I really liked him. I genuinely didn't think I was going to like him as much as I did, but by the end of it I was like he's good, he's really good, so I'm interested to see where they go with him. Yes, mavity. Oh yeah, it's the running joke, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well again.
Speaker 2:They've sort of said, oh, is this like a thing? Is it going to be like a real meaningful thing? They've changed history and I went, yeah, so it's just a bit, they're just doing a bit, and it was repeated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2:Does. The other parliament is going, but actually is it just a bit, or is it actually something that's?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the one good thing?
Speaker 1:No, it's just a bit. One good thing that they have sewn the seed is there's. It's like we talked about, didn't we? The episode's gone off, lost track about the bad wolf element. They've dropped a load of stuff and it has got people going looking back over the episode, going hang on about this. What about that? What about this? So Mavity is just going to be a running joke, isn't it? It's nothing more than that, I don't think, but it is. Yes, it's a bit lame, but it is quite funny that they've actually sort of gone in with that. They actually latched onto it.
Speaker 2:What did you think of the goblins?
Speaker 1:I liked them Again, for I watched the Doctor who Are Leashed. That's how committed I was to this and it's all prosthetics, everything. Even the Goblin King was something they made. Five guys were driving that and it's like, yes, this is what we want, we don't. Okay, they CGI'd the ones in the background, didn't they? But they were all real people, including the lady who played Poe in Telly Tubbies, which I thought was quite amusing.
Speaker 2:Love it, love it. I wished there'd been more goblins. I want to see more goblins For the Little Song and Dance. I want to ship this fun, but I wanted more goblins yeah, they didn't do much, did they really?
Speaker 1:And I suppose, yeah, they, there wasn't much. They did the little bits around the edges, but there was mainly. It was just on the ship and that was it wasn't. There wasn't anything else that they did so. I suppose they could have done more with them, more interaction, maybe more conversational stuff. That might be quite cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a weird one because obviously they were a threat, but they were kind of interdimensional and you go. Well, actually are they the problem here? They're just a problem. Yeah, are they just bad luck goblins, anything cool, I like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the concept of how they've it wasn't because he wasn't beefed out. Was it about the potential of what they are and that thing about all that they could be, the things that cause accidents in the real world, and it's like it's quite interesting. Oh, no, no, no, we kind of scoot over it a little bit.
Speaker 2:Moved on, yeah yeah, but I liked him. I thought the musical number was fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dr can sing. Yeah, all that angered a lot of people online. There was a lot of rage for Dr singing. I thought it was good. I did get it didn't faze me, but I did think of that. Yeah, there's not going to be so there's going to be some people who don't like him singing.
Speaker 2:But it was Christmas, it was a bit of fun, it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they both sing and it was quite cool. It's quite like the way they got out of that.
Speaker 2:I like these sonic gloves.
Speaker 1:Sonic gloves were quite cool, whatever they were called. Oh the gravity gloves, things, the Mavic gloves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought, it was a clever concept.
Speaker 2:I thought him like just floating using one hand was kind of cool and, admittedly, pulling the goblin ship down with both gloves was interesting. Admittedly, my physics brain was going no, no, error, error, you're not physically no, just no. But that was good yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again, turn your brain off, turn the filter off and on slightly and you can just go. Yeah, fair enough, I'll let him have that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I quite like the gloves. They were cool. And it does beg the question are we going to see little like non sonic screwdriver gadgets like the weighty lumps? Yeah, yeah. The man's got gear. Let's see some of the toys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of like the John Pertry kind of stuff, a little bit more leaning into the gadgets and the tricks and the tools and stuff.
Speaker 2:The whole sci-fi in us and fantasiness of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, interesting to see. It was good that fact. The sonic didn't work in the ship, so it's like, oh yeah, first outing and it didn't work properly.
Speaker 2:Well, my again the issue. I had him going. He said wouldn't ship, mate, don't work on wood.
Speaker 1:I missed it. It's straight away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can only for a squirrel get a grip. I would notice the AVE Lord.
Speaker 1:How different was this episode compared to the last three? It felt like a totally different show, which is bizarre, considering the only thing they've really changed are the two lead characters, the actors. It felt like a completely different show. I don't know if it was just me, but the tenant Donna thing.
Speaker 2:In what way did you think it felt different?
Speaker 1:It felt like there was a completely different energy to it. I don't know maybe it's because I didn't get on with the previous three episodes that I enjoyed it more, because it felt different as a thing.
Speaker 2:Tenant has a very specific energy, yes, and also they read. So rather than it being the whole widest face, the bigger mystery, this was very much focused in on her, her family and meeting him. So I think that lays a focus on just those core characters. And then the little side note with the goblins and even things like the one to one interview with her and the being the recall beginning you go.
Speaker 1:Actually that's quite nice, it's a good way of introducing her as a character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was. It was good character development work. So yeah, I think because you know that Donna and we know 10, 14, whatever you want to call him, whereas her was completely unenunciated. So that way of going, oh, even if you is a home life, he's just her being her, and then the doctor is going wait a minute. That's weird, and just honing in on that. Yeah it was quite nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it did feel like some of the camera shots and stuff felt different. Maybe that was just being out of there, it's just felt different. Speaking of which, I like the way they just did the her introduction to the TARDIS, because normally it's the walking or bigger on the inside. But the way they did that aerial shot when she just walked around it and it's like, oh, that's never been done before and it's really nice way of just without saying it, just showing it. Show, not tell, as we talked about, and that was really nice. That's all you needed to say. And then she just walked in. That was the end of it.
Speaker 2:On the plus side. It wasn't Clara. It's smaller on the outside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, never mind. This is hope Ruby didn't turn into a Clara. That's all we can hope for, or a Rose series one, or a Donna, or Martha, oh God. Martha was the only one who didn't go bigger, although she did save the world. But there's only one episode. Yeah, let's wade into the mysteries, because there was a few things splattered. There's the obvious one first is who is Ruby? Ruby is Ruby. Is that too obvious? Also, I've watched it twice, so I was looking at even a doctor who?
Speaker 1:unleashed. They had a quick shot of whoever it was under the hood. She looks too tall to be her. I don't know, it doesn't look the proportions don't look right If it's going to be the same actress playing her own herself. So two theories I've seen online are Jenny and 13, because people say oh, it's the same boots. And they've gone and screen grab the boots in the snow and said look, it's 13s boots that she always used to wear. No, because that'd be far too complicated, far too complicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even Jenny would be a mind mess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that would make her his granddaughter, which wouldn't be too bad. But I think for both mysteries, I just don't want it to be anything we know about. I want it to be something different because in some ways, if you latch on to something we've seen in the past, it's just something that we've seen in the past. You've kind of I don't know what we talked about before. This new era has jettisoned quite a lot of the baggage from what's come before. So if they take two or one of the big mysteries of the series and hook it onto something that's happened in the past, is that what they're trying to do? I would prefer them to create something new, make her something different, make her something important, but something that isn't the Rani, which I think everybody said Mrs Flood is. She could be the Rani as well. So, yeah, I want it to be something completely new, something different.
Speaker 2:Say again Actually David Tennant, because everyone's David Tennant. Oh, of course, yeah, it could be. It could be 14.
Speaker 1:14's under the hood, there you go, 14's in the perm up. Oh God, we'll come to that in a minute, yeah. So, mrs Flood, again I watched this twice. So I watched it with my son today and I've watched it before.
Speaker 1:So the second time I was watching her reactions to the TARDIS when she's interacting. So the first time you see her, she's arguing with a neighbour about the police box being on the path seems natural. Second time you see her and the TARDIS, it dematerialises in front of her and she drops the shopping, which again is a natural reaction that a human would probably have to seeing something like that happen. So if she's there is what a TARDIS is, which we assume she does then that could have been an equally natural reaction to go, oh shit, that's a TARDIS. And then the last bits is when she's interacting with him, where the doctor comes out and she asks him who he is and he said, oh, I'm nobody, so she doesn't necessarily know who he is. And then the last things when she interacts with Ruby, where she wishes a good luck and kind of gestures for her to go inside. So on that assumption, I don't think she's a time lord because if we're following the rules of canon that Russell T Davis set down.
Speaker 1:The time Lord should be able to recognise each other when I see yeah, but he set that down, and if he's going to break his own rules, well, actually we've seen him break rules like no, so maybe that's not a good one. So I think she's someone who knows about TARDIS is, but doesn't necessarily know who he is, or didn't know who he is until she worked it out, I don't know.
Speaker 2:What do you think? The obvious one is she's Ruby, because of course she is, and she's Ruby's mum. There you go.
Speaker 1:They're all Ruby. That would fit better than being her mum. But again, I don't know, maybe she that would fit better than Ruby being her own mother. I could go with that.
Speaker 2:I think the problem is they're going to give you enough to get people's minds going, and then you're going to go to weird and wonderful places and there's going to be something really obvious yeah, she's just Ruby, or she's Ruby's mum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he said in an interview that it's a slow burn, but you do find out more about her in this series, so it's yeah, it's nice that they've dropped those things Again. Everyone's gone Rani, jenny, ruby's mum, something to do with Amy Pond, because Pond and Flood are words that are related to each other. Yeah, yeah, it's tenuous.
Speaker 2:I think that's the thing. It's that kind of a lot People are trying to create lex.
Speaker 1:I prefer to be something completely different that is just not related to anybody we know, anyone we've seen before. I think we'll want we add the doctor's mother, timeless child, woman. Just do something different. That's what I want Something that's interesting, that keeps you hooked.
Speaker 2:Talking of the toes, yes, I would often. I just go recently.
Speaker 1:Oh you hurt me.
Speaker 2:Why do you hurt me?
Speaker 1:I'm going to confess something. I was in such a good mood with this episode that I kind of let that go and then afterwards went why, did I let that go? I was. I wasn't annoyed about that and I should have been annoyed about it and I wasn't I was. That was kind of the mood I was in, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, we're not going to get all the opposite, because part of the brother hadn't watched any of the child stuff or hadn't had the line about by generation and going down a timeline.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Christmas afternoon I went right boys. Right, I'm going to look at the look of oh God. Why, oh God, please save me.
Speaker 1:No, they've obviously doubled down on it. Trebled down on it, yeah, and they've actually made it a fundamental part of the series only because it's she's a foundling, and he's a foundling.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Coincidences, coincidences, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, they're saving grace for the timeless child thing still being here and I use this loosely is it's Russell T Davies writing it, not Chris Chibble, so he might do it justice rather than just hack it together and hope it sticks, which is kind of what they've done. There's still all this thing about the toy maker jigsaw of the Doctor's life what's real, what's not, thing that might still come back. So I can reckon all in the series Like, yeah, they could do, just get to all the dream. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm happy or sadder. It says in the go actually, guys, all this stuff is a setup, was all nonsense. Yeah, it was all a dream in time.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I just got to let just try and ignore it. If I ignore it it'll go away until we get to episode eight and yeah. So, the episodes. I was going to say that it's not 10. It's not 12, because I was looking while I was setting up this evening. Yeah, we went from 12 episodes down to 10 and then it's gone down to eight, so it's only two months. So that's interesting.
Speaker 2:That is eight for the next series as well.
Speaker 1:May didn't say when, so I'm guessing Maybank holiday, first Maybank holiday. That's my kind of finger in the air.
Speaker 2:So that lead is nicely into ratings and watchability. Yes, so Is having it in May good or bad, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, the ratings for the so stepping back. Final ratings for the Giggle were 6.85 million, which was down from 7.14. That's the seven day plus four and this Christmas episode on the day, 4.73, which is higher than the previous one, but not what did we say? Our threshold was eight or seven, seven, seven, eight, ten.
Speaker 2:Well, it's never going to hit ten.
Speaker 1:Never, ever, in the hope of going to hit ten. But it's not good, is it? But I don't know. It's weird.
Speaker 2:But it wasn't like the third most watched thing on Christmas Day as well. Yeah, it was still high.
Speaker 1:Actually, let's have a look at other programs Christmas TV, because it's all it's. Like you said before, it's all gone. Weird with the advent of streaming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people don't watch TV anymore. This is a problem of looking at TV.
Speaker 1:You can't. You can't compare Titanic episode to this because it doesn't work, even with the plus seven stuff. Because people watch on YouTube, people prioritize it. People are going to watch it on Disney plus if not in the UK. It's all weird, yeah. Third top one BBC King's speech 5.9 million, strictly 5.3. That strictly used to be loads higher than that anyway, yeah, and Doctor who 4.7.
Speaker 1:So I, I, yeah, it's. Where was EastEnders? Eastenders, 3.6. Now, eastenders used to be really high back in the day as well, so I think I thought a lot of said Cory didn't even make the top 10. Yeah, so I don't think it's as bad as it's made out to be. If that makes sense, if that makes sense, let's go back 10 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're using a strict number policy, then yes, it's got awful. There we go. We know that numbers can be manipulated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just for 10 years ago, 2003, christmas, I think this is. This is BBC 2013. Yeah, oh, no yeah, when I 10 years ago is not 20, 2003.
Speaker 2:We know the 80s or 20 years ago. This is fine.
Speaker 1:We're okay, that one was quite interesting. Anyway, we'll come back to that minute 2013. Oh, good Lord, mrs Brown, boys, good God, 9.4 million yeah. It was on this year Time of the doctor. So that was that. The word that's the one around the 50th in. It was around. It was after the 50th, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Dr.
Speaker 1:That was Smithy's generation yeah, 8.3 million. East End, the carnation street 7.9. East End is 7.8. You go back another 10 years to 2003, only falls and horses 15.5 million. East End is 14 million. So it's 10, 20 years ago completely different.
Speaker 2:And, like you said, we talked about this in detail. With a rise of streaming, people do not watch TV anymore. Yeah, it's bizarre.
Speaker 1:It's actually really interesting.
Speaker 2:So using East Enders as a, as a ballpark. So when 14, 7.
Speaker 1:2013, it was 7.8.
Speaker 2:So yeah, 14 7 and then three and a half.
Speaker 1:It's like dropping 50% each time. There, enough, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting to read all that. 4.7 million compared to dead enders, that's not too bad, because again go back in time 10 years and suddenly you're talking 7, 8 million for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's bizarre and if you go back and start looking at some of like 2005, first op-2 special 9.8 million. But also in that top five is Shrek, which is a film. There's no films in the top 10 anymore because everyone just watches them streaming. So but in 2005 in the top nine, top 10, there is one Shrek toy story to the news 6.2 million. So again, it's this bizarre how things have changed, yeah 6.2 million for the BBC News 645 bulletin, which you think about.
Speaker 1:it is prime time. It's bizarre, yeah. So actually, although we kind of latched on to ratings last time, I don't that is still low and I'd be a bit, but I don't think it means as much on Christmas Day as it used to. I think we've just proved that in our very skeleton experiment there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah I think, if you add, if you use the EastEnders matrix.
Speaker 1:There we go. That's a trademark, eastenders matrix, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we've had miles. Bar economics, we're now going to have the EastEnders new matrix, yeah, it's dropping right off.
Speaker 1:So, and also because this is funded by Disney, they paid for two series in advance anyway. So it's not going to get canned on the basis of that, and I suppose even Disney Disney does fudget figures because they're losing money hand over fist across the subscriptions. But I don't think we're going to get anything meaningful out of the being figures from Disney. So now have to wait and see.
Speaker 2:But it seems like they've thrown a lot of money at it.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's going to go anywhere anytime soon.
Speaker 2:Well, again, we've touched on this before. Is it the cash cow it used to be?
Speaker 1:No, it's not.
Speaker 2:The merchandising. Is there the supplementary stuff? Not yet.
Speaker 1:I think we've.
Speaker 2:The fact that Doctor who Confidential, or at least whatever it's called is back. That's a positive to me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, the guy who presents it is really annoying, but apart from that it's like it was.
Speaker 1:It's a BBC presenter. It's just really annoying, like proper greats on you. But yeah, that's back. It's kind of like he's trying. If there's more merchandise out by the time we hit May, that's a good sign. Because I actually googled to see whether the new Sonic screwdriver was out. Yet it's not. But then I thought why would it be? Because they haven't gone to the start of a series yet where they're really going to start the promotional stuff. You'd think so I wouldn't Action figures, toys, whatever is going to start coming out over the course of 2024, isn't it?
Speaker 2:But no. So overall I thought it was fine and I think, like I said, I wanted Titanic and Christmas and big and wonderful and it was a nice intro episode, but to me that's not the special.
Speaker 1:It wasn't festering enough for you.
Speaker 2:No, it weren't, and I think, because I watched it with people, they all felt the same as well. It might have been my negativity just infecting the room which, who knows?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because people I know watched it and when we talked about it they said, oh, we thought you wouldn't like it. I was like, no, I liked it quite a lot. Yeah so maybe I've changed, maybe that's it, who knows? But I genuinely am looking forward to the next series, well, this series that series, yeah, I think we had a wobble with the specials. Yeah, we've gone a bit weird and we're kind of back on track and it seems to be like, okay, this looks quite good.
Speaker 2:I think we will know by the middle of the series. So it's first opening episodes. I'm going to get hooked or we're going to be shouting it loud again. Yeah, we've got. I was looking at the this episode.
Speaker 1:So obviously none of them have been released, but the first one, because there's a trailer on the back of Dr and Lulie she's in space, drone off, yeah. The next one is the Beatles one, which has got Jinx Monsoon in it. And then there's at least one where they've got a period piece where a lot of people say, oh, it's Captain Jack Hartness, no, they're not going to replace Barrowman. Really they're not going to do that. That's to be fair, but some kind of space dude in. I don't know what's it, I can't say it. It was the Beathen times and then the other ones. I don't know. I don't know anything about it, but I want to do some reading to find out what other episodes we are.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're getting a few parts.
Speaker 1:I don't know. We've got eight episodes. Let's assume that there's a two-part finale that drops it down to six. We know one's in space, that's five, the Beatles one, that's four. That's a single episode, I know that. So there's four left, so you could probably have another two-parter in the middle, potentially.
Speaker 2:Like three and four or four and five are two-parter, but then he goes six and he goes seven and eight, wouldn't you? So, yeah, three, four is the only option, really, I think.
Speaker 1:And three is the Beatles episode, which I think is a single one. So maybe we're not going to get any two episodes in the middle, but we'll get two at the end. Yeah, I don't know I have no idea. So, yeah, quite looking forward to finding out what happens.
Speaker 2:Perhaps we could have a series, but are all two-parters.
Speaker 1:Or just one big story. No, no, we didn't, no, we did that. Yeah, it didn't work. No, I don't know, they've been interesting. I know that Disney again read something today. Disney have got to say because apparently some rumor from a proper TV journalist, not somebody on Twitter said that the shots they did where Ruby and her friends were getting in the taxi and the doctor was watching her were added in on Disney's request after they did a episode screening and wanted to have more of the doctor at the start of the episode.
Speaker 1:So some of those extra bits were added in with him, which is interesting. So Disney have got a bit of a say. They're not just putting up the money, they are actually doing some test screening, which is interesting.
Speaker 2:There will be a fly in that wall, eh, yeah it must be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really interesting that whole BBC-bad wolf Disney relationship that's there now. Who's actually in charge? Who's put in the strings? Because I think Russell's got a lot more creative freedom than he had before and the BBC are obviously probably relieved. They don't have to do a lot of the heavy lifting, the money. But then they've got all their weird quotas they have to fill, yeah, but then Disney have also got their quotas that they want to fill. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I reckon that's real fun in those meetings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it must be interesting there's definitely a lot of money because the first Doctor who Unleashed. I really watched all the way through and you see the studio and stuff now in Cardiff. It's like wow, that's massive.
Speaker 2:I didn't realise how big it was. The Cardiff set is enormous. Oh yeah, that's huge. Yeah, the Cardiff was big.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would see.
Speaker 2:Did you go on Smith's one?
Speaker 1:No, they were building it. When I was there darling, when I was on the real Cardiff, I didn't see his one with flesh.
Speaker 2:When I did the TARDIS tour, darling, it did that one and that set was enormous, Wow yeah, it did look properly big.
Speaker 1:This one's just on another level, isn't it? It's just crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is huge Like multi-storied and all sorts.
Speaker 1:I didn't really twig where it's located and I was like oh, it's there. Oh wow, this is massive. So that alone suggests this isn't going anywhere in your time suit, no matter what ratings they get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is a great and like we said, if it gets to the cluster of drivers and it sells much, that's all there is to do, yeah that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just those ratings. Just look at those ratings tonight. It's like really interesting to go. Just stop to who's losing ratings, it's everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah. People don't watch Telly anymore.
Speaker 1:No, not in the same way at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'll take away for tonight. Then we need more hats.
Speaker 1:Dr Hoody's more hats yeah.
Speaker 2:Ruby's David Tennant or her mum or Irani or Jenny or Clara or River Song, or yeah, ruby's going to be something that's not a bogs and a boring human.
Speaker 1:And we're going to hate it. Oh no, not this time. And she's a rogue yeah, we're not going to hate her. I'm determined to come out of a series without despising the. Because despise is a bad word, but it's probably right, so I didn't like Rose. Martha was the only one that I actually liked and she only stayed for one series, donna, she was all right, but then Clara, no, amy Pond was all right, she was bad, oh no, but she got wound into all that doppelganger thing and it all got really confused.
Speaker 2:And she was the mother of the song.
Speaker 1:Amy Pond was the worst. Wow, there you go. There's a statement fans. Then we had Clara who was great, she was also the worst. And then Bill was all right, but she was only one series. Bill was all right.
Speaker 2:No, she was good.
Speaker 1:The relationship between her and 12 was great and it was just a shame because she just got sidetracked and also Missy was in it and it all got. And then obviously you had 13 and a gang of her fam. I hate that phrase.
Speaker 2:It's not because of Doctor who.
Speaker 1:I just hate it anyway. I just hate people saying it, especially when people my age say it. It's like you're too old. Stop saying it, I'm not 16. I use it to annoy people. It's a horrible word, fam.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I have to prove that I'm down with kids. So therefore I must say fam occasionally.
Speaker 1:Hello young people. Yeah, no, I just want to come out this series. Whatever she is, whatever she turns out to be, I just want to like her because she's good and it's like don't ruin her Brussels, don't make her.
Speaker 2:She's going to take all the tropes. She's going to start out regular. She's going to fall in love with him. Then she's going to become like an ancient god and save the universe and then beat over town.
Speaker 1:I don't think we can beat that, really can we?
Speaker 2:If I get all four of those, I'll be really happy.
Speaker 1:That would be quite good. Yeah, that's the Ruby Sunday Bingo. Yeah, it's just going to be under that hood. It's just going to be bad. Cgi TV Tenant head, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, it is yeah, so you're not going to be doing CGI, you're going to CGI David Tenant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just really bad CGI, david Tenant, walking very slowly away.
Speaker 2:Slowly. Yeah, it doesn't take that long to walk away from a church.
Speaker 1:Well, you shall wait and see. I think we've done. Yeah, I don't think we can go any further than that.
Speaker 2:No, no, we're not going treading on old ground. So yeah, next time on Old Manchester Clouds.
Speaker 1:We were going to do a recap of 2023, weren't we?
Speaker 2:We were, yes, the highs, the lows, the ys and the ogods.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that would be quite good. No plan would just wade in and come out with some random stuff. That's happened over the last 12 months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll probably get very lost in the reeds, but we normally do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there'll be a lot of politics and stuff we can't talk about yeah, yeah, yeah, we might get grumpy or we might be evenly balanced. It's like ying and yang. Today we have been. This podcast has been just balanced.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are pure balanced, just as in.
Speaker 1:Yes, there you go. There's an end on this certain moment, oh yeah, oh. I shall say goodbye, bye.