Journeys in Fandom
Step into the world of fandom with Matt and Tim as they take you on a wild ride through the pop culture universe. This isn't just any podcast - it's a journey with two mates who are unapologetically passionate about all things comics, film, TV and more.
Journeys in Fandom
Doctor Who and the Loosening of the Rules
Buckle up, Whovians, as we plunge into the labyrinth of changing rules in the Doctor Who world. We'll wrestle with the controversies of the regeneration limit and Russell T Davies' surprising revelation about the timeline. Let's get heated as we debate the return of older actors to the series and their potential effect. Plus, don't get us started on the inconsistencies plaguing recent episodes – we've got a bone to pick with those!
We're not shying away from the tough topics either. We'll dissect the accusations of racism against the series and the decision to sideline David Tennant's Doctor. David Tennant returning, Christmas specials, evolving societal tastes – we're discussing it all! Plus, we discuss that clip from Christopher Eccleston and Billie Piper as they spill the beans on their experiences on the show. This is one episode you won't want to miss!
Hello and welcome to episode 10 for a meta episode or no? No, it's episode 14 of the Journey's.
Speaker 2:Infant and Podcast. It's episode hand in a jar.
Speaker 1:Yes, episode hand in a jar. So, if you hadn't guessed, we're going to talk more about Doctor who.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what we're talking about nowadays. It seems to be the hot topic of the last one, two, four weeks. How can it be?
Speaker 3:crazy.
Speaker 2:Yes, four weeks since it started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I made sure I wore a different Christmas jumper just to prove I won one.
Speaker 2:Yes, Fans is Die Hard. A Christmas movie that's. That's an episode for another day, but I agree it is a Christmas movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just yes, that's episode done. So episode 14A then.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh Lord.
Speaker 4:We don't far too many of these.
Speaker 2:It's just too close together. Carry on.
Speaker 1:Oh God, yeah, we were going to talk about our favourite episodes of Doctor who from Old who and New who, yes. However, however, the specials happened and we want to talk about them some more. So, we might have time to talk about our favourite and episodes. But who knows, we might not.
Speaker 2:We'll find out. Who would have guessed that changing canon would have such a ripple effect on fandom as this? It's like it's happened before.
Speaker 1:Yes, indeed, yes, indeed. Admittedly, just before we pressed record, I did see a tweet that said oh no, there's another Doctor hanging around, so I can do a spin-off series for Ten and not worry about a new Doctor. That's a picture of the Meta Crisis 10. Yeah, valid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he did want to do a rose spin-off, didn't he? Way back in the day. But whether Billy Piper would come back and do it I don't know, but because it is all the whoo-whoo-niverse now and multiverses are the big thing. So we've got a cash-in on the multiverse.
Speaker 1:To be honest, it's the whole whoo-niverse thing. Detracting from what, Doctor who? Oh, actually that's my question for you, Tim. Oh God, so the whoo-niverse does that detract or does it add value to the core product?
Speaker 2:Well, Ie Doctor who Speaking, trying to think from experience of multiverse stuff. Okay, Marvel, slightly different context, but look how much mired in nonsense Marvel has become when they've gone down the route of these things. Now I guess if Doctor who doesn't go down multiverse nonsense and just sticks with this group of characters here, this group of characters here, this group of characters here in the same universe, it would work. So they've not really talked about what it's going to be. Now spoilers they might put an eighth Doctor Series out. Where's that going to sit? I think we're going to talk about that in a minute in terms of where would that sit, but you could do a unit spin-off if it's on Earth.
Speaker 2:That would work. That would be quite good. The likes of like we talked about Sarah Jane's adventures class would have fitted into that thing, but they haven't got anything else at the moment, it's just the main show.
Speaker 1:I think like if the unit spin-off, what stops it just from becoming like a Stargate-y, buffy, monterey-y kind of thing? What was the Marvel one they did that had Colton in it? That was bad.
Speaker 2:Oh, the agents of shield.
Speaker 1:Yes, so would unit just be agents of the universe?
Speaker 2:And then if you do a load of stuff, obviously in the way they produce it, you'd do it in the gap, wouldn't you? Doctor who would be on a certain time of the year, the spin-offs would be in another. But if you did that, yeah, would it? Then when it comes to a monster Earth-based unit story with Doctor who, it becomes kind of oh, we've done this. Torchwood was slightly different, wasn't it? Because Torchwood was very confined to whales, to Cardiff, and never the tool shall meet. But yeah, if you're going to do something like unit, it's going to be, unless you do a unit in Africa. Well, I don't know, I was making it up that wasn't in London. You could get away with it, couldn't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because.
Speaker 2:Torchwood worked.
Speaker 1:Torchwood did work it did. And when they did like Children of Earth, and that was a that was a proper like world-ending threat and they explained the lack of doctors he was off-planet doing something.
Speaker 2:They can't do that now because he's sat in. He's sat in Donner's garage.
Speaker 1:He's sat in Donner's dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah they can't do that. They haven't got that excuse anymore because they've, as we said last week, painted themselves into corner by having a fully fledged time-lord parked up on Earth, and we'll talk about that in this episode, I think, in a bit more detail. But that concept doesn't really work anymore because there's a time-lord sat all the time on Earth, forever. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've realised, doing this podcast, I don't sit still when I talk. I talk with my hands and I'll sit up on there and I'll think I'm mootin'. Yes, I need to take a note from Tim's book and be more used to just sitting and talking rather than yeah.
Speaker 2:It's also a microphone here, and if I swing my arms around I'll just swat it and it'll just go away.
Speaker 1:That's the one, whereas I've got my snowball kind of just out of shot here, yeah, but.
Speaker 2:Yeah, universe don't know. I also think it's kind of Multiverse is so 2020. It's been and done. We've kind of gone through the multiverse and we're out the other side now.
Speaker 1:It's a bit of a loose theme now, admittedly, all of the big finish productions. They are technically a multiverse and they're just one of stories and they're eventually with doctors and companions from all the eras and to be. You know what they work Because they just are a self-contained. I think that's the thing. It's a self-contained story, that just happens.
Speaker 2:And the only confines of canon that they use are the doctor regenerates at this point, so they can't go beyond it, and we'll come to that in a minute. But everything else is woven into the stories on TV and it follows its own path. So the eighth doctor had loads of liberties, whereas the fourth doctor doesn't, because of the way it kind of works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and admittedly the eighth doctor, audio stuff is amazing, he's really good. He's got companions that you never got to meet and I went oh, this would have been fantastic and I would have loved it and it would have been great. And it was the. It was a. What, if wasn't it? It was the, because there was so little ego. Actually, this could have been so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, it did make them canon, didn't it? In the 50th, with that little yes, he named-checked them old, didn't he? So it kind of made it canon in that respect. But you know that he's far by far the best. He's arguably the best doctor we never really had, and some of his stuff is really good, especially if you follow it from the start and you kind of go through it all this time.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it actually then has its own timeline. That actually works.
Speaker 2:There's quite a lot that's happened. So should we do ratings first, because that's quite an eye-opener. Yes, I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Have you heard?
Speaker 2:the ratings. So no, probably good, we had just recap. So Starbeast overnight got 5.08 million and the consolidated Good to hear Starbeast, yeah, yeah, starbeast is the eye player, whatever. 7.6 million, oh sorry, 7.61 million, I'll get it the official. The following week, wild Blue Yonder never say it right got 4.83 million on the day and the overnight. The consolidated are in 7.14, so it was down on both. That's what, half a million down, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, so it's a little higher than Jody's last episode, but going down. No, seven day, obviously for the last week, because they tend to. It's weird. There's a little bit of a hoo-ha going on Twitter where people are accusing the BBC of not putting them out seven days in advance, but putting them 10 days in advance and stacking on an extra three days to try and boost it. I don't believe that, but anyway. So last week's episode, overnight ratings 4.62. So it had gone down again, which I was surprised about. I thought it would have. It's a regeneration episode. Yeah, exactly, I thought it would have. Yeah, got it a little bit and maybe got it to about five or just under, but it's gone down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, out of all three, that should have been the highest rated, just the number of views.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'd be really interesting to see what the seven day one is, because if people check in after seeing it on the news and hearing word of mouth, you'd expect the seven day to be higher than 7.14, you'd expect. But if the pattern is going down then it could be that the pattern stays going down. So, yeah, that seven day one's going to be really interesting. So not good, if I'm honest. Not good.
Speaker 1:And again, is, in my imagination, or social media the worst invention in the world? There is no middle ground. People either love these episodes and are so deep for the best episodes that have ever been written by anyone ever cannot be told anything else, or they hated them. There was no as right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's weird because we talked about that a bit last week. But yeah, I've been following the comments in the last seven days and it is very polarizing. It's also quite not as clean cut in the media. This last episode has been getting some flak. It's not just been wow, this is amazing, this is Return to Doctor who. It has been getting some criticism about the way certain things were done. So it's not. Yeah, it's an interesting sort of like beast excuse the pun at the moment because, yeah, it's literally. This is really good. Well, this is really bad. There's no middle ground.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right to talk about the big.
Speaker 3:Thing.
Speaker 2:We've got. I've got a couple of clips, because we didn't talk about this is this is linked to the big thing. The commentary did we last week because we went to Doctor who Unleashed and I didn't realize afterwards that they they've done a. Philip Phil Collins and David Tennant and Russell C Davis had done a commentary on the whole episode, also on iPlay. So we missed that last week, didn't we? And it wasn't till afterwards that, as a oh, I wish to talk about that. I didn't know that was there. So there's a couple of. There's two things on there that YouTube be damned. I'm going to play it from iPlay and I'll cut that out because I can't be bothered. One about something we'll talk about in a minute the regeneration and something else. So let me just do this. I'm ready. Give me a thumbs up if you can hear it.
Speaker 5:There's a little moment here which makes me think that. Here there's the moment where the toy maker says I made a jigsaw out of your history. Oh yeah, which again is part of this whole loosing the rules. The doctor first you know was was the doctor half human when he was born again? Is he a timeless child? Is he? This just relaxes the rules, like he is, whatever you want it to be, right, right?
Speaker 2:So there's that little tip bit there, because I touched on it last week Did. Were they going to re-wreck on the timeless child? We'll go on to it a bit more, but it's one of these throwaway comments that Russell's been making post last week, and you just think what is. Is that kind of? Have they kind of done that to try and satisfy the complainants without actually writing out Christian Bill's masterpiece? Sorry, yeah, it's just one of those quotes where it's like they had the opportunity to do it and they didn't do it. And they could have done it and just satisfied it, but it's like oh no, we're just kind of just. You could decide whether it's now relevant or not. We're just going to loosen the rules. That's the phrase that comes up multiple times in that commentary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but this is again what we've touched on last episode. If you're going to have a set of rules for a universe, they must apply. You must define what your rules are for. The classic one regeneration. The old rules were if the doctor dies, he regenerates. However, if he dies so quickly he doesn't have time. It can just kill him, and I hate to say it. But a star destroying laser beams through your chest. Sorry mate, you're done. You don't get up from that, especially without a massive, great hole in your chest. It's just no.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this thing shoots out satellites sorry, you're dead, you're just done.
Speaker 2:Because, like with the rules, with the regeneration limit, that was quite easily explained. Stephen Moffat explained it very simply that the time laws just gave him another set of regenerations. Simple Done.
Speaker 1:Walked away from that. However, then the time of child ruined it. Yeah, because that's the whole.
Speaker 2:He doesn't have a limit. Yeah, so why? Because he's not a time lord. Yeah, so it's little things where people try and make changes to the canon, thinking they're clever, but don't think that some of the seminal moments that have gone on in the past and now not avoid, oh, it's going to change it. I suppose this is why Doctor who is a slave to its history in some respect, because people like us remember things Well hang on a minute, what?
Speaker 2:about this, but now you've changed everything. I think in some ways, fans like rules, and what Russell's doing here is he's removing the rules because it's like, yeah, that's just like. He's like hippy man, let's make it cool, let's make it this. It's all a bit loose, but we like rules. And now you've taken all the rules away. Yeah, it just becomes like the wild west. You can just do what you want, and I don't know if I like that, I don't like that. I'm going to give get getting grumpy. I don't want level grumpiness upon this week, maybe not, but it's like.
Speaker 1:I know we like rules, turn me up, but yeah, it's this kind of very flippant way of just saying that's fine but yeah, like we've hammered home about, if you're going to have a fictional universe, you have got to set parameters to that universe so that otherwise nothing works. And that's the problem. It's like the episode two with the TARDIS and it's had system. Whatever it was, that's the most stupid invention in the world.
Speaker 3:It's a poor device.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a pure plot device. Oh no, I'm in danger. The TARDIS ran away. Okay, so wait a minute. Literally every time you land it would be a problem, and yes, that they'll throw it on or turn it off, but then I turn it on again and who knows if it's the TARDIS rebuilding. The TARDIS rebuilds every every three years because you blow it up so yeah, the whole thing of no, just just no TARDIS is basically indestructible.
Speaker 1:You've had it standing in front of an army before and it doesn't care. So the whole oh, it's a hostile thing. You go. What, what, what is it?
Speaker 2:and then it comes back right at the moment it needs to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it does.
Speaker 2:Anyway. So yeah, the rules are there and he goes on, or we? I think we've all seen this, I think everyone's seen this, but I'll play it again for reference, just so that we know where we stand. This is where the rules get even more confusing.
Speaker 5:So then, so our whole timeline by generated then that was it in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yes, so.
Speaker 4:Mr.
Speaker 5:McCoy woke up in a in a draw in a morgue in San Francisco, unfortunately, nobody's been about yet, so he's still in there, constantly regenerating Over and over again. And, and, john Perts, we woke up on the floor of the laboratory.
Speaker 2:Right, you did. Yeah, paulie.
Speaker 5:Baker got out of, got up and sorted the Rani out.
Speaker 2:Yes he did, and who were they all did?
Speaker 5:Very interesting. There you go, most of them, as the modern doctors have ended up in their own TARDIS. So Peter Capaldi just woke up in the TARDIS. You and your 10th version, oh yes.
Speaker 4:Oh, yes, also still out there.
Speaker 5:Yes, just woke up in the TARDIS because they've all been that mean that's not in the TARDIS. That means there's three of me now. Yeah, no, the last one is his wasn't in the test, was it was outside TARDIS beast.
Speaker 2:So there we go, there's the other. It's just flippant, flippant comments. So last week I still stand. They should have killed 14 off.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Not like I say, and I couldn't live with the fact that there's a 14th doctor will come to that in a bit more detail still out there. It's annoying. But then to go back and say, oh, they're all still lived, is this his way? There's two kind of trains of thought I've got. This is his way of opening the door for Peter Davison, sylvester McCoy, colin Baker to come back without having to do all timey wimey stuff with them. Is this a way of him creating the universe by breaking the rules so that he can bring the older actors back? Or is it just Russell T Davis going to do something crazy? We're just going to make it up as we go along, which sounds, it feels like he's made it up as we go along.
Speaker 1:And so, okay, the the whole thing of our day wake up in that space. But how did they just? Okay, okay. So statement is by generation happens in the long, the entire timeline. So every version of the doctor now exists. But when they died, obviously they regenerate and disappear off and go. So where does this body come from? Did it just magic out of existence? Does it just happen? Because obviously the split doesn't happen. And again, if you're gonna have rules, have rules how the time travel actually work in your universe, because you go out and then suddenly, like, every single regeneration, especially where it's the doc sacrificing themselves, is instantly cheapened Five tens, a whole lot which is going no, you're fine, you just get up and walk away.
Speaker 1:Yeah and also I'm coughing. It's hot, I'm almost hungry.
Speaker 2:The first doctor died of old age. So when he wakes up again, is he gonna die again? And also you can argue, the wall doctor died of old age as well. So the two of them just aged and he laughs and joke. But also, first of all, chloe just keeps dying in a coffin and keeps regenerating into who. It doesn't make any sense If it's like they haven't explained. I think if they did come out and explain what happens to 14 when he gets old, does he just die? They haven't explained that. So we joked, didn't we last week? Does he regenerate into another 15, a different 15 or the same 15? Or does he just die of an old age? That needs, I know it's kind of like like fan talk, but he's explaining.
Speaker 2:So these people are gonna get old, give us rules, simple thing. So they've died and they've come back to life. Do they live until they get now? Small point, but if you remember old Gollum doctor episode, he was an old man, tenant was an old man in a wheelchair. So obviously, time boards, when they don't regenerate, how old do they go to? Do they go until they're like a crusty little Gollum in a cage? Or do they just die when they get to the age of 80, human age, who knows?
Speaker 1:Well, you saw 11 living. For what? Was it 1000 or 80 years old? Of course that's an example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go. There's my answer. Donner's gonna be dead and buried and he's still gonna be living in the garden, isn't he so?
Speaker 1:yeah, the concept of this and actually you cause 10, and so 10 regenerates into 11, and then you've got the hand, and then you've got four. Seen, you've got three bloody versions of him kicking around. Literally 10 dies and wakes up as 10, and there's another 10 still. You've literally got two of the same doctor.
Speaker 2:10 goes into the hand. So metacrisis 10 revives by the hand. That's two. 10 goes into 11, but then comes back again. That's three, normal 10, that's four, 14, that's five. So there's at least five versions of David Tennant out there somewhere now. At least it's just.
Speaker 3:Even trying to count them is stupid.
Speaker 1:Again, like David said is there like three versions of me. Well, yeah, plus the metacrisis version.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and all the other ones that are just spattered around. For various reasons, it feels to me like they wanted to do the bi-generation and actually, as a core concept, like I said last week, it's a clever concept. It's never been done before.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll go an atherisk beside that. We'll come back to that later.
Speaker 2:No, no, I'll rephrase that. The concept of them splitting like an atom was clever. But 14 should have died as part of that process eventually and left 15 on his own. He didn't do that, so they wanted to do something different. They did something different, but now, by making a flippant comment, they've kind of just just go oh yeah, be fine If in some ways timeless child was bad, like level 10 bad.
Speaker 3:This is kind of not that far behind it.
Speaker 2:It's the worst yeah, oh, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, okay equal it's bad. It's certainly on a different level.
Speaker 2:It's not the prioritising Woody Mahartner, what it kind of is, because it's making multiple versions of him knocking around all over the place. But yeah, it's bizarre.
Speaker 1:Oh God, I've just had a thought what so timeless child plus by generation?
Speaker 2:Oh Jesus, that means there's gonna be like little girl on the bottom of the cliff. Yeah, they're all like is the entire population of the galaxy? Now the doctor Maybe? That's gonna be the big reveal at the end of this series is everybody says the doctor, yeah, the doctor is in you all along. It's gonna be like in a buffer, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's gonna be a triangle to screaming yeah.
Speaker 2:so there you go. There's our prediction for the end of this end of shooting's era. They're all gonna be the doctor.
Speaker 1:Oh God, and that's it yeah it's buffy to go home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, there you go, all the tenduroy to now layers.
Speaker 1:No, I behave.
Speaker 2:Oh, so yeah, by generation. It's a mess.
Speaker 1:It is a mess, but then a sensible concept ruined by one throwaway line. That's actually make like if your commentary had been to go well, actually, he's regenerated. He is now not gonna regenerate any further, he is mortal. End of yeah. That's throwaway line would have fixed everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but no, no, no, no, but they had to make it so ambiguous, give him a TARDIS and then just leave it open-ended. And we've talked about it last week and there's still some more comments we did talk about that have been in the press. It makes that whole concept of what does the 15th doctor do when he's on earth, because there's already a 14th doctor there doing something and a lot of people, in some of the press as well, said the doctor, being the character that he is, would not intervene. He would intervene.
Speaker 2:And it cheapens that whole kind of earth. Invention now.
Speaker 1:And I think also they said about 15, trying to get my numbers right about him doing therapy in reverse Because he had already been in the therapy scene.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we said last week, didn't we, that well, hang on, 15, have all the angst of 14,. But there was a throwaway line. That was when they were in the TARDIS together and he said about yeah, time laws do rehab in reverse or something stupid like that. So, that means he's all happy and positive because 14's already done his rehab.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which someone pointed out. I can't. It was a YouTube video which is actually. I hadn't considered this, but especially with new who, especially with nine, definitely with nine, 10 and 11 and the war doctor, they were all traumatized from the time war and actually just say I think 12 as well.
Speaker 2:So what we're saying now is all the traits that made the doctor interesting, all his issues with Gallifrey time laws ignore the time chart, that doesn't count about running away have now all gone. So all those really interesting gray areas of the doctor's characters now gone and he says he's happy bloke who just goes around dancing in nightclubs. Is that what we're saying now? That all the dark bits, all the bits, all the angst, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, the whole like oncoming storm idea where even a Dalek would go, actually I don't fancy that because I know what it's capable of.
Speaker 2:Is that all gone now Because he did rehab? It's still a bringing back David Tennant's face reason, for it was just weak. It was like, well, I need a reason. We've got David Tennant, let's make something up that fits what we're trying to do. On that vein, though, there was one article from the Verge, which was interesting Black journalist accusing RTD of being racist, which was an interesting thing from the mainstream media.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is what you said to me, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, I was. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can see his point of view, the concept being very loosely, that by keeping a white doctor, aka David Tennant, in the background it a cheapens the first black male actor to play the role because the favorite has been kept in reserve. But he was also saying by keeping David Tennant still alive, if shooties tenure doesn't do so well, they can just replace him. And I was like I don't necessarily agree with the racism thing but it does bring up a different interesting concept is have they consciously or subconsciously got David Tennant in reserve again to save the series if it all goes tits up after two years? Don't know.
Speaker 1:Interesting article Again. That article made like comments about even like the outfit choices and stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, the fact that something's not different and you go.
Speaker 1:Well, does it matter? But actually, like we've pointed out for the last, like four podcasts, being straight white men, our opinion may not be valid, but actually, if you've done it the other way around, tent with his pants and is there a I don't know?
Speaker 2:he's kind of, he's kind of looking at go oh, hang on a minute. Or I know what they were trying to do visually was they 'd split the clothes? Yes, and, like I said to you last week, there was no gag about the fact he wasn't wearing trousers. There should have been a gag and there wasn't one. So it made it weird that the fact that no one mentioned it, that the fact he used to see in any of his pants, there should have been. You could hear the Brigadier, the Brigadier going I've got that man some trousers. You could actually hear someone said no one said it. So it was a bit weird, but I can understand where they were coming from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a lot of the articles are sort of saying, when actually most of the time there's a handing over of the torch, and this is the first time where that torch has not been handed over because of 14, is still there and does it cheapen Chutey's first outing that is first seen because you're going well, actually it should have just been a new doctor and it wouldn't have changed anything. In theory it would have done. It would have been, yeah, actually beginning, middle and end to the toy maker of yeah, you face three doctors, you've lost twice and one once happy days, but it's so difficult. I think the problem is we are so invested in this to a casual. A casual fan is not going to care and I think, being not casual fans and also taking on the role of critic, we are now seeing the negatives. Where actually in our younger days would we have seen the same negatives?
Speaker 1:It's a good point. Actually, I think it is. It is it the old joke of, as we've got older and more jaded and more confident, to just go. Well, actually I thought that was crap Because again, like back in the old era, the absorbal off was absolute garbage and it got panned like a good, but you just have to find a way to say that really matter. But actually. No, it was crap, it did not deserve to be written in. It was naturally abomination should be taken from the records of your time.
Speaker 2:But hey yeah, I think, like we said many times, societies change. Yeah, the last tenure Chris general has completed in sourd a lot of people's tastes in Doctor who. You talk about casual fans. The ratings went down for that episode so casual fans were tuning out potentially. Yeah, which is a concern, must be a concern for them. I know they've got Disney money proper and am up, but casual fans didn't come back for it. It's gonna be really interesting at Christmas now. Really interesting if they don't break whatever it was seven accumulated for the first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm now downgrading my prediction. If they've got to get over seven on the night for it to have done any good, they've got to beat their seven day record.
Speaker 2:I don't know, yeah, they've got to get over seven. But I don't know, our fans just not bothered anymore and have checked out, already checked out and not coming back. I don't know it's, if tenant and Catherine take up, bring her back with a bit nostalgia. Yeah, I don't know, it's a weird thing, but no, it's.
Speaker 2:Go back to your thing about being kind of negative. I think you accept today is difficult because so we were sold a lot about this being better and it wasn't, and I think that's part of the thing it's like, yeah, I'm still going to criticize it because it won't great. But yeah, go looking back. You know it's to be fair. Some of the stuff maybe not as publicly I criticize. I didn't know. I'm quite open that I didn't like the whole Rose doctor, love, love thing. Always didn't like that and I've always said so, and that whole series. Second series was not very good. Third series was brilliant. Fourth one was again very good. So yeah, certain things I probably need to go back and watch them to be fair, to see whether it's rose tinted glasses, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my brain's gone. Now again like the 60th celebrations not being a celebration.
Speaker 3:I think that was the other thing, yeah, and I think lots of people have suggested would.
Speaker 1:Actually, it's a soft reboot and a handing over off the torch. So literally, okay, let's park everything that's happened up till now. That ends with 10. So going forward, it's all new, but because of the way they've parked it, literally you know, back garden in London somewhere, you can't forget about it because, like we said, there's a fully accomplished dog, the other yet a with a TARDIS on Earth.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think we talked about last time. It's like it's, instead of being self referential and celebrating 60 years, we cut the cord from 60 years and didn't reference anything. So it's not reboot to say, right, we're not going to deal with that anymore, that's all going, it's got. They've already openly said it's not going to be sci fi orientated anymore. It's going to be more fantasy oriented, and we've seen that from the goblins, from the Christmas episode. So it is. Maybe it's that right, we're going to do something completely different kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think again we we've touched on this in our previous few episodes. What is Dr who meant to be?
Speaker 4:And I think this.
Speaker 1:This is the problem. What is the product they are trying to sell to us? Because, actually, the old adage of mad man in a box running around having adventures, that's fine, but what is that? So are you going to have Montreux week? So are you going to have Buffy 2.0? Are you going to have a series long villain? Are you going to have two parts as one part? Is this going to be? Mini series is like old who we had like, oh, like little four or five part ones, and a series will be like story before loads. What again? It's a show that evolves with each version of the doctor, but what? What do they want it to actually be and what will a modern audience?
Speaker 2:actually watch. Yeah, it's a fair point, because if you look at other classic sci fi TV shows, they're all ensemble casts. So Star Trek, whichever version you want to choose new, new Star Trek, old Star Trek you had at least what? Half a dozen main characters. That ebbed and flowed. We talked about agents of shield Again big ensemble cast. That Dr who doesn't have an ensemble cast. It doesn't fit the modern mold of what a TV show is. It has two main characters, really, doesn't it? Or three other push.
Speaker 1:And again it's had its Avengers assemble moment as well, which was 10 in the TARDIS with Captain Jack and Donner, and yeah, and the thing you mean. Yeah, they're all. They're all in there, Just go. You need six pilots. Everyone grab a bloody stick, kind of thing. Yeah, Again the old man in the coming hours. No, no, I just size out of time.
Speaker 2:I'll stand by that again. It was cheesy because it was unnecessary.
Speaker 4:I think yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It doesn't fit the mold of successful long term TV shows because it was from a era that it bypassed all that stuff. So all that ensemble TV show stuff, it doesn't have it because it is in. This is like an emerald of its own, isn't it? So, yeah, well, we're going forward. We know it's going to be progressive and avert commas and have more of the kind of social where messaging. He's already said that. So we've talked about it.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to do it again because I don't think it's worth it, but they'll probably beat us about the head with some of that stuff. But what else are they going to do? What are they going to do to make this iteration different from all? The others have come before it? Is it like you said? Is it going to be I think you're looking at a story than message Is it going to be? I don't know. I'm going to, I'm going to prefer, I'm going to predict Brussels going to go back to basics. So he's going to try and go back to basics, because he's already done it with the dance number and, like I said last week, where it was John Sim and toy maker, same thing. I think he's going to go back to basics and he's going to do a bad wolf on us and he's going to try and capture lightning in a bottle again and do that steady build to the end of the series. That's, I think he's going to do it in an attempt to go back to basics and try and do it again, but I don't bad wolf work.
Speaker 2:Once and when they tried to do torture in series two, it was so obvious what they were doing. It became a bit of a running joke, didn't it? Like? This is torture preference, torture, torture, torture reference. So, and then Moffat tried to do the opposite and go really complex, and that really just got too weird. So I don't know, I think he's going to go back to basics. I think I read that Ruby is a found link, so a child without parents was just found, and I think that'll be the mystery. That will be series one. Who is she? What is she? How does that all work?
Speaker 1:Clara.
Speaker 2:Clara's mum or something like River Song. Just so obvious that it's like, oh God, I can see this coming like a truck.
Speaker 1:You can just see it. Oh God, it's coming. We just can't get rid of it. Could you imagine it's Clara.
Speaker 2:Oh, she'd be the Rani. That'll be the other thing people say Guarantee she's female. Yeah, I generally don't know, but looking at those ratings, they've got to do something. They got to do something because people are tuning out and it's just the core group that are left that are watching.
Speaker 1:And so again, having not watched Jodie's era because it was bad, and not watching the Capaldes run because I couldn't be asked If Doctor who just came back and was just fantasy, fun, just fun, because actually has it lost that kind of sense of fun and whimsy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say Series one was good.
Speaker 1:It had some good jokes, but it was definitely a. This is here to get us back on track. This is Doctor who. This is what we're doing. Then ten was fun and whimsy yeah. Eleven continued that tradition yeah. And then when it began to get complex, it began to disappear up. So nice, yeah. And then obviously, capaldi was very kind of more dour, but again, I haven't watched enough of it to make that assessment A very traditional Doctor who portrayal, so very William Hartnell kind of.
Speaker 2:I still like Capaldi's run, even though it has hoakiness and Clara and everything else. It was still good and he was some really good performances and I feel sorry for him. But yeah, the fun graph has gone down as we've gone through the series.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So actually, if they just have I'm going to sound like a broken record a well-written story of the week or a two-parter of the week that just does its job and ticks its boxes, then it doesn't need to do anything else. It just needs to be good watchable TV. Yeah, I think that's kind of where, if you're trying to like, force a narrative arc, or you're trying to force something new, or you're trying to force whatever into it that detracts from just write a good TV show. That's all you have to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Trutie Gathar has got the energy. We saw that already, so I think he could definitely give a bit of a kick up the arse and actually give it some energy, because that's what it needs a little bit more oomph and a bit of pizzazz. I think he can do that. I'm not seen. Is it the actress's name? Is she Coronation Street or something like that? I've not seen her, so I don't know what her performances are like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I've not watched Corrie so I don't know. But again, even like the trailer for the Crippness episode, just him climbing the ladder and running on rooftop to go. Actually, that's just what it needs isn't it?
Speaker 2:The goblins look okay a lot of people don't like them, but I think that's what I call it.
Speaker 1:But they're also their classic effects, aren't they? And I think also the change of tone. I saw a little meme earlier and like what? Yeah, at heart I was going hello and she's just going, babes, just going, all right.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I've got one more piece of news which I forgot to do at the start. Have you seen Christopher Eccleston and Billy Piper at the convention this week? No, no, they were at. I think it's is it greatest show in the galaxy, the one that's always in like some compound somewhere you went years ago, it's like in Butlins or something like that, I can't remember. It's one of the conventions.
Speaker 1:No, that was Sci-Fi.
Speaker 2:Weekender. It might be Sci-Fi Weekender. Actually it's like Monopoly events, Really Is that still going Something.
Speaker 1:It's like the winter one Greatest show in the galaxy.
Speaker 2:No that's the one that I went to. Yeah, yeah, anyway, monopoly events. So this is just a clip. He did a Q&A with Billy Piper and there's lots of really it's worth going to see. It's like he talks about a lot of Doctor who stuff, but he's worth watching the whole thing because it is. Yeah, he says a lot of stuff that we already know, but it's the first time I've actually seen him say it, so let's play this. So the question comes about him coming back to Doctor who.
Speaker 3:You'd all love to see Christopher come back as a doctor, right? See Now what would have to happen for that to become a reality.
Speaker 4:Sack Russell T Davis, sack Jane Tranta, sack Phil Collinson, sack Julie Gardner, and I'll come back, so can you arrange that?
Speaker 3:Did you find it hard to be like associated with the character given?
Speaker 4:Not at all. I love being associated with the character. Just don't like being associated with those people and the politics that went on in the first series. The first series was a mess and it wasn't to do with me or Billy. It was to do with the people who were supposed to make it and it was a mess. And the first series of any show Billy did confessions of a Cool girl.
Speaker 4:You know, first series nobody wants to know. The BBC were like we're going to keep a big distance from this. And then, as soon as it was a success, they were all up close going. I was responsible for that, but they were all like at a distance, like this is a folly Eccleston's folly, piper's folly, russell T Davis's folly. And then when it worked, suddenly oh yeah, I worked on that they couldn't come anywhere near us and then they jump on the bandwagon. Those kind of politics I'm not very good at handling. I can't swallow that shit. There you go.
Speaker 1:I know it's great. Hey, that was not true that was their all fucking idiots?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because obviously he came out with his autobiography, didn't he Not that long ago and explained the reason why he left with mental health and there was a lot of politics and it's old news what he's saying, but it's the first time he's actually physically said it. He doesn't like any of them and there's more in there. It's worth watching it. When he talks about there was no support structure, there was no, nothing, no such thing about supporting staff with mental health problems, he talks about Billy being sort of like a new actress and no one looked after her. So he had to look after and she acknowledges it. I know in that clip she kind of like sort of facial expressions are a bit different.
Speaker 1:You can see he's off on one. And actually, when going back Christ, however many years, when we were told that compound was going to be Billy pipe, I think we at the time went really yeah, what the singer.
Speaker 2:you sure yeah, there's all that kind of rule.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she wasn't an actress, so literally the whole weight was on his shoulders. Being the name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a big bit in there where he talks about looking after her and the fact that they were kind of he was just she was just dropped in the deep end and he like basically took her in the wing and she acknowledges it and she sort of like thanks him for it and stuff like that. So they obviously had a really good relationship and he just definitely lose to the fact that everyone else was. It was like a closed, closed group of people and those two were on the outside, which kind of matches with all that stuff, with barriman and all that other stuff. And but the fact is he names everybody who's just been brought back to save Doctor who as people he would never, ever work with. It's like, oh, good Lord, yeah.
Speaker 1:And those punches were not pulled, were they? That was?
Speaker 3:very much get rid of these idiots and start again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he obviously doesn't like them at all. But yeah, it was interesting to think he's been doing the rounds this week and it's like, oh, but he talks a bit more about Doctor who and stuff like that, but it's other stuff as well. So it's it's a shame because you know you would have done a second series at least, but obviously they yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think, as well you look back on it the way it was handled by the BBC, because they were just in their infancy anyway, weren't they At the time? It was oh, he doesn't want to get typecast, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they leaked it themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want to do this. Chris Reckleston, how did he get time cast get rid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I remember the yeah, they leaked it. And now you look back and go yeah, they leaked it themselves to protect their own assets, because he was going, yeah, and it was. Yeah, it's a shame, but yeah, that was just a nice little tip bit. There's like oh dear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've just had a full actual we talk about all this. Obviously, the 60th was a thing they could have brought back the doctor experience.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, what were the ones in a? Well, because, originally it travelled, didn't it? It did because it went to London, didn't it? And it also did a lot of.
Speaker 1:Yes, so if you were going to celebrate the 60F, you could have dug all the stuff out of storage, had it run for a month.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's weird isn't it.
Speaker 2:I just don't think there was any appetite from the BBC or any of them to do it, because again it feels again it might be me just saying it, but it feels like they didn't want to talk about the past. They're all focused on the future now. This is the future. This is the future. We're just going to not talk about what went on before, not even show it in any shape or form, except for a shot of the toy maker, and that's it, nothing else. We didn't see anything from the past.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again there was enough stuff in those three episodes to feel a small exhibition. You could have all the outfits, you could have all the animatronics stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a little bit of a taster of things to come. You could have the goblins there and said, oh, this is going to be Christmas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, you could have had all of that and literally open it the weekend at the first one or the third one and have it run for a month, and it would have made some money, yeah, or it would have broken even the least People would have had for it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, strange times.
Speaker 1:Yes, so favourite episode of Doctor who, let's do it.
Speaker 2:I'm looking at the time. Maybe we should hold on to that for another time. We've already got 10 minutes left before the hour mark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we knew this was going to happen. We went. Oh, yeah we've got a different episode. By the way, we don't have time for the episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll get this spat out before Christmas. It'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine so next time I'll tell you that he's in fandom.
Speaker 2:Probably in 2024. Oh no, no. Next time is the review of the Christmas episode, because we're going to do it Christmas day, aren't we? We're going to get up. We're going to do it Christmas day? No, we're not no, I don't think we are. I don't think I cope. I don't know if I could be festive and grumpy all at the same time. It just probably won't work.
Speaker 1:I can Actually, yeah, you can. I can be grumpy while we're wearing tittle. I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the next episode will be the review of the what is it?
Speaker 4:called the shirt from Ruby Lane right. Yeah, ruby.
Speaker 2:Lane or whatever it is, because she's named after the lane she was found on. That's the whole mystery, because she'll be David Tennant. That's what she'll be. That's it. I've predicted it. Ruby will be David Tennant.
Speaker 1:She'll generate a brand-new name for David Tennant. It'll be bad CGI.
Speaker 2:Just his head on her little body. It just really crappy CGI. Oh God, there you go Spoilers.
Speaker 1:I can see. I've closed my eyes, it's all I can see.
Speaker 2:And Shutey will be in his pants for the entire series and no one will mention it. It'll be, it'll got to the point, you know, when you've got this point where Someone does something, but they've done it so many times you can't point it out anymore. It'll just be that.
Speaker 1:It's really nice to have one where you don't get a name, and then, if I like that a third time, I'll ask you. You just make me boy now, ain't ya?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that'll be it. He'll just be wearing his pants for the entire that trade is his fault. He's just gonna be in his pants and that's the way it's gonna be, yeah. So we've had enough for Doctor who. For four weeks, or three weeks, it's been four weeks. We said it earlier, don't we?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we'll do that again next week. We're literally five in a row.
Speaker 2:Oh God, yeah Is it at some point next week.
Speaker 1:Our fan base is gonna have to have another Doctor who's Ray in it.
Speaker 2:We'll have to think of. What else can we talk about? I don't know. I don't know any more, we'll have a gap between Christmas and. Easter, there'll be a gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we won't talk about Doctor who at all for like three months.
Speaker 2:And then it all, god and then when it comes back in. Easter every week for 12 weeks.
Speaker 1:Oh God, yeah, yeah, god, that's gonna be fun. Let's call you a waiter. What are we doing? Yeah, I think you're having the Not having a fixed rich edge rule. Is that a really good idea?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because you can just chuck it out whenever Catch people on the way.
Speaker 3:Is that, oh God?
Speaker 1:Oh no. So at some point in the future we will talk about our favourite episode. Yes, hold up for it Doctor who from the part of Resin. Next time we will talk about Christmas and then we won't talk about Doctor who anymore. We promise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, until they do something else wrong, and then we'll be back on it, back on them.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm sure we'll pick this up to be really grumpy about yeah there'll be something happening.
Speaker 2:Russell will come out with some crazy canon-changing comment in like a tweet over Christmas.
Speaker 1:Of course he will, but actually, while we've got two minutes left on the clock admittedly from my own other life Hasbro announced that they're laying off 1100 remes of stuff, which is a big number. That's a lot of people, because people aren't buying Hasbro games anymore. But they also affect Dungeons, dragons and Magic, which is the Wizard of the Coast, which is basically their golden goose, which Hasbro are killing at a rate of knots. So Baldur's Gate 3, windsgame of the Year really good, brilliant game Of the initial meeting that Larian had with Wizards none of those staff are now employed. Wow, can we just go, dear God people? So I think there's an episode to talk about just stuff, stuff, where you just go. Really it's like the. I can't believe this part of fandom where someone or something stupid or a company just goes. Actually we're evil. Then you go. Yes, we know, oh there you go, literally.
Speaker 2:Two days ago, twitch said they were going to allow more boobs on Twitch yes. 24 hours later they backtracked yes they did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was the top of the stream, wasn't it, where you literally see like nothing.
Speaker 2:But it's obvious that there's something there, yeah, and then they backtracked Because they go well, yeah, so, yes, it was random stuff like that Just kind of go. Oh, missed that. Oh, okay, for enough. That's happening. No, it's not happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, I think, yeah, I think one of our episodes in the new year should be a really episode.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's it 2024,. Start the look back on 2023 and go really Really. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think yeah. Yeah, the first episode of 2024 should be a look back in 2023 and go.
Speaker 2:Really, there we go. We've planned our next two episodes. There you go.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, the enjoyment that will definitely happen at the Christmas special and then our retrospective will be really we can talk politics and all sorts of great oh we'd be good to that wouldn't it. Yeah, we can do our spin off of Matt and Tim and talk about the Conservative Party for an hour.
Speaker 2:Journeys in parliament. Oh God, why Parliament journeys in parliament? There you go. I wonder if there's a? We can bookmark that URL.
Speaker 1:Journeys in parliament. On that note, yeah, yeah, let's end this recording now I can see our preacher background. No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Radio. Yes, until next time. Doctor who fans, I will say true heroes, goodbye.