Journeys in Fandom
Step into the world of fandom with Matt and Tim as they take you on a wild ride through the pop culture universe. This isn't just any podcast - it's a journey with two mates who are unapologetically passionate about all things comics, film, TV and more.
Journeys in Fandom
Doctor Who: The Giggle Review
Have you ever questioned the recent changes in the Doctor Who canon? Buckle up for a thrilling discourse as we navigate the twists and turns of Doctor Who's 60th anniversary special, "The Giggle".
The journey through time and space doesn't stop there; we also explore the controversial changes in regeneration, debate the implications, and anticipate the upcoming Christmas special. We discuss the arrival of the Fifteenth Doctor, Ncuti Gatwa, and conclude about David Tennant's return as the Fourteenth Doctor while expressing our mixed feelings and our anticipation for what comes next. If you loved Tennant's performance or thought it was simply a nostalgia grab, you'll definitely want to hear our thoughts!
We wrap up the discussion by delving into the representation and diversity in Doctor Who, focusing on its portrayal of LGBTQ+ characters. It's not just about ticking boxes; it's about well-rounded characters and storytelling! So, whether you're a Whovian through and through or just a casual viewer, join us for an exciting journey exploring the beloved universe of Doctor Who!
Hello and welcome to the Johnny's Infinite Podcast, episode 13.
Speaker 2:I'm lucky for some. It is the review. Is it Lucky for Doctor who? Ah yes, because it is the review of the third 60th anniversary specials the Giggle.
Speaker 1:We're back again. Seems like only yesterday we were sat here talking about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, three times in three weeks. We're doing a new record and a Herculean effort by Tim to make this possible, because he's getting it out the next day, which is unheard of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're doing it again tomorrow. I might be a bit later tomorrow because I've got to go out in the morning, but we'll get it done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fact that we're able to do these episodes is basically one shot. So just right, we haven't talked about it beforehand, we haven't made eye signals, we haven't planned anything. This is just right. What do we think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and hardly any editing needs to be done. So we're pretty good at this now, aren't we?
Speaker 2:Before we start, we had some feedback from our last episode, oh yeah, and they said they missed the grumpiness because when we're enjoying things, we're not as fun, apparently.
Speaker 1:We're not being as grumpy. We need to be more grumpy is what I'm hearing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So apparently old men shout at clouds is the new standard. So Alex this one's for you, buddy.
Speaker 1:Obviously, that's what gets the ratings. We're going to have to lean into that a bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so apparently after two of us, you are the grumpier one.
Speaker 1:Oh, well, I am older, so I suppose that, well, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Admittedly, no one locally will believe you're older, because apparently I am older than time itself.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, there is.
Speaker 2:There is a running joke that I'm ageless, I am eternal.
Speaker 1:That's quite timely for this episode talking about ageless things.
Speaker 2:Yes. So, the giggle Before we go?
Speaker 1:yes, oh, so you go first, because I think you might be on the same road.
Speaker 2:Before we get to the big thing, let's talk about all the other things.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about the ratings for the previous episodes before?
Speaker 2:we even get that, so I've got them here.
Speaker 1:So the consolidated plus seven is what it's called ratings, for star beast is in, so that's seven days Okay Watching.
Speaker 2:So basically I player catch up, so it got total 7.61 million with the extra ratings stuck on top of it Still.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we're on the up 43% on Jody's last episode, with those added ones stacked on top of it, while beyond that had 4.83 million. So that's a down 0.25 on the star beast overnight, which is kind of what we expected.
Speaker 2:It was going to go down, yeah, and actually we thought it was going to drop more than that, because the initial hype and then obviously you drop down and then hopefully for the third one, you then pick up.
Speaker 1:And with all the controversy over the first episode, it was inevitably going to have people walking away from it.
Speaker 2:So it's not not done too badly on those two, two ratings.
Speaker 1:So we'll have to see what we'll see for the final one, whether it picks up anybody or loses people. I'm kind of predicting it will pick up because it's regeneration episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like we said, Christmas is going to be the big one. Can it do the lofty heights of well?
Speaker 1:what they used to do. It's got to be Jody's first episode, which was 10 points something, so it's got to get above 10 to do any good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and these double figures, and that is a hell of an ask for a TV show nowadays.
Speaker 1:Yeah, live TV show, yeah Interesting.
Speaker 2:So yes, they're the ratings.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, how are we going to tackle? How are we going to tackle the giga? Okay, first, impressions.
Speaker 2:What did you think? I thought Neil Patrick Harris was awesome. Yes, however, I'm going to ask you exactly that I wanted more of them.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I think okay, my initial feelings of the gig. Why was it an hour? Why wasn't it two parts? Why wasn't it all three episodes? It should have been longer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it felt rushed, really rushed, and so you could. Yeah, you could argue it could be three episodes. It should have been more than one at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, to be fair, all three episodes have felt that there's been building, building, building our look and yeah. And that's the the vibe, because I thought, oh, you could build him and he could be a real problem. And suddenly it just was act three and we go oh God, it's just, it's done, we're here, we could have weaver.
Speaker 1:We've woven his character through three episodes. It could have had separate stories, but they could have all been weaving and interlinking and he could have been popping up in the background and stuff. That had been really cool if he was just there, just as a figure in the background all the way through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and when you're basically dealing with a God like malevolent entity. It needed more. I thought the the spice girl was dancing in UNHQ, was? It was awesome. I'm here for that. I liked it. You weren't. You weren't here for it, were you no?
Speaker 1:no I liked it. I liked it, but. But what took me out of it was it reminded me too much. It felt like a rehash of what he's done before. So the master did a dance to music. Yeah, johnson's master, and even I always forget the actors name yeah, yeah, last master did a dance to music, and especially the Johnson master. It felt the same scene. It was rehashing it again. So it was. It was good, don't get wrong, and it was.
Speaker 2:It was a clever, it was a funny scene, but at the same time it was like and again, in an episode that's that short, that scene was quite long, it could have been cut, so for more you're going. Well, 20% of my episode is him dancing, which was awesome, but at the same time, yeah, it was long, yeah, and as well.
Speaker 1:again, it needed more than one episode because the bit when they're in the corridor of doors, that felt really it felt like a bolted on thing. That could have been an episode in itself, just been trapped in his domain. That could have been episode two. That could have been why Blue Yonder hit them, trapped in this weird sub universe. So, yeah, that felt bolted on and rushed to get to the end point.
Speaker 2:What did you think of the puppets?
Speaker 1:I refer to my Steven Moffat. I've got an idea. I'm going to throw it out there and hope it sticks again. They were there for a second and he was quite funny watching Donna kick the shit out of them. Yeah, it was an idea that was wasted. It could have been an episode itself having creepy puppets and it was just oh, that's gone, like the guy who was made into a puppet with awful CGI yet again. We'll get to that in a minute. Could have been an episode in itself of John Loewey Baird he's sidekick and being made into puppets. That was a Doctor who episode crying out for like an old-school, timey-wimey Doctor who episode, but it was like, oh, just bolt that on and try and make it work.
Speaker 1:I thought the practical effects for the puppets were really good again, like while be blue yonder with the big arms Really good. And then the CG CGI David Tennant. Is it just be his David Tennant CGI just doesn't work?
Speaker 2:No, it was like the other guy was alright, yeah, it's a puppet doctor in a go-no, it's not. I don't like it.
Speaker 1:It's really bad CGI again. It's like, oh, three episodes of bad CGI and good CGI yeah, maybe this like we've only got so much budget. Well, dial it down, just so that people still come back. Realism, yes. So again it was. It was, there was lots of really good ideas, but it felt like. It felt like someone had just been sick on the screen of ideas and they were all kind of just there. It's like, right, yeah, there's no coherence to all these ideas.
Speaker 2:I Thought that the bit where they're saying where everyone was going mad and like politicians are included and say, watch, I care about any of you lot, we don't. We had that standard. Oh yeah, that's nice. Okay, government Nice, the job was there.
Speaker 1:The job was there. Also, there was something about Him saying oh humans cancelling each other online and stuff like that. That's a nice little jab there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, admittedly, the government joke. As soon as they mentioned it for the press conference, I thought I know you said what joke they're gonna make, because if they don't?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was it was telegraphed Like it was coming, you can tell it was going it was nice to see. The TV woman was back. The newsreader woman from all the previous series had her own show. I thought that was quite cool, so that was a nice little nod, so that wasn't too bad.
Speaker 2:What about Mel Bonnie Langford to return?
Speaker 1:that was. That was interesting because I kind of half knew she was gonna be in it, because I saw a photo. I think they released a photo quite late, but it was nice To begin with that I'm gonna juxtaposition this as a big word for Saturday night. He didn't make a fuss, it was oh as well, and it wasn't this big kind of dramatic music led reunion like we've had with Sarah Jane, and so maybe because it's just the significance of who Mel is.
Speaker 1:But it was just kind of like oh, there's Mel, and they had a quick get there to chat, yeah, and I don't remember. I remember how she left vaguely and they kind of told that story, but I never remembered her being that Scientifically orientated. But obviously she's got older so I suppose she's traveled the universe. You can argue, but it was quite nice. She's just fitted in and it just kind of worked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was. It was nice interaction where you just sit next to go. Yeah, that's kind of how it is sometimes when you meet someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you haven't seen Fridge's, so that was quite nice. Yeah, the Donna, interaction with her was good as well, so that was kind of, and then they talked a little bit about the companions and stuff on their own. So, yeah, it kind of worked that I and I know she's good and I cut and there's lots of, lots of things about this. But she is going to be in the next series as well, because there's some series of her and shooty, so but I'll come to that minute.
Speaker 1:But yeah it was good. It was just like oh, it's Mel and it's like, that's quite good.
Speaker 2:When did Donna get so good at being a secretary, or?
Speaker 1:the typing thing. Oh, it's a running joke, isn't it? I think even way back to series four about her when she went for the job with the adipose. Yes, and there is a running joke about her and her typing speed. Which again, is is good and her to go job negotiation was quite cool as well. I thought, yeah, little little, there were little bits like that, which is like oh yeah, that's quite cool. I quite like that. It's quite nice stuff. Unit Were what they were. Yeah but I don't know it's.
Speaker 2:They are a means to an end, so I thought when they took the Inhibitor band thing, that was, take that for sure, that was that took a dark turn. Yeah, oh yeah, that's that, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was. That was done well in terms of, yeah, a nice little piece back to there, so that was a nice Example of how it works. That was good. Explains how I didn't really get what the alien robot thing was. That it Explained that so that's so and so and then you didn't get about it.
Speaker 2:Is it an?
Speaker 1:alien, is it a robot?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no idea what it is. It's the quarter and toss it all out. Yeah, so it reminded me of the oh Men in black, the first one. We've got these two like twins keep it 36 hour day is a random robot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just like flick or fizz or whatever it was name was.
Speaker 2:But you never explain. Yeah, I don't think.
Speaker 1:It's just like okay, right. Yeah, I think I see was moving at breakneck speed. Yeah that it Didn't stop.
Speaker 2:To explain things yeah, and that's our problem, because you've any, got an outfit, everything into. It's like the the beginning. This is nice build up because I've been bought a toy. I need a toy to do this. Yeah, that's really cool. No, it's. It laughs. What it's burning? Yeah, that's nice. So the intro is it's a nicely pasted and suddenly it's just gets quicker and quicker and quicker and something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my son watched it with me and it's quite nice watch it through his eyes. He'd lost track of what was going on about, about at the unit Explanation with. When he got the, the, the giggle and explain what it was, he was just like, uh, what's going on? I don't understand, yeah, why, why they did it you could tell because he's asking more and more questions and so he lost it, that at that point, and then took a while to catch up with what was going on. Yeah, so he understood the principle he doesn't get everything, don't get me wrong, but he lost what was going on because it was just it was it was moving fast and what's that robot? What's that doing? Why is he doing that? And he's just like, yeah, even I don't know what's going on at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, getting a bit. What's very one who knows who knows he's.
Speaker 1:Just, they just passed it, just glossed over it. What else I wanted? The? Obviously we save the last bit to a last. There were lots of things, lots of things thrown in, so we had he who waits yeah, that's future Foreboding for something. So we don't know what that is master the masters in his gold tooth. Yeah, so that's something else.
Speaker 1:And the woman's hand pick up the gold tooth, and that was obviously, obviously a Nod to the last time a woman's hand picked up something to do with the masters the masters now free the fact there's an entity that the toy master, which is a Cosmic being of godly powers, goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's obviously. Yeah, there was, there was one point. There was one point that I thought, oh, they're gonna do it and they and I was just like the edge of my chair and a step back when he talked about trapping the master In the his tooth.
Speaker 2:I thought they were actually gonna go.
Speaker 1:When he mentioned the master, I thought they were gonna actually go down. Oh, the time was child, that was all me. I just messed with your head and they didn't do it. Oh, that was the opportune moment to rewrite the time was child there, by saying I captured the master and I became him and I've Been manipulated you for years. That would be brilliant. They could have rewritten that whole, entire nonsense with one line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do it. Opportunity was just there, just to yeah, and again like so re-write it. Yeah, but the whole flux thing they leaned into again. Oh yeah, yeah, it was quite good watch Amy Potter.
Speaker 1:That was good, that bit when he goes the baby pod died, and and now what did he? What was his phrase? And he's accent change. Well, that's okay, all right, isn't it awesome?
Speaker 2:They're like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's okay yeah and then that was just, that was brilliant, so yeah just go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she died of old age. Well, that's okay Then. And no, Florida, though she's, she's lifted the last one. Well, that's okay Then. What about Bill? Yeah, she's, but as well.
Speaker 1:The flux, just for your reference, because you did see it. And they again glossed over this. When they say the entire galaxy was destroyed, they mean everything except for earth. So there was one shot when the flux was going across galaxy of light, satan, jupiter, all the major planets in our solar system being destroyed. So they're not there anymore. The Sontarans were killed, the Cybermen were killed, the Daleks were killed, every major race was killed. So and they've doubled down on that. So what are they gonna do? How they're gonna explain that away in the future.
Speaker 1:I've no idea, but again it's another thing where it's like just have they, have they written themselves into a hole a bit there but yeah, that was nice.
Speaker 2:There's gonna be a big undo button.
Speaker 1:No, well, actually all of just not care.
Speaker 2:Order, just forget.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's well, that's it. The old concept of the Daleks keep coming back and back and back and back is just no one cares, ah. So yeah, that was yeah, the toy maker in general, and Neil Patrick Harris was great, and the way he just kept changing his accents I thought was quite yeah, it's quite a nice feeling between.
Speaker 2:He, we both watch doctor who Unleashed.
Speaker 1:And there was hardly because it they was they big did up as this thing that was gonna explain lots of stuff. It really wasn't. It was just like, yeah, two or three minutes explaining the regeneration concept, which wasn't anything. We didn't really glean anyway. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was interesting when they would talk about the toy master at his origins of obviously celestial meaning Chinese, which is why it's a white guy wearing a Classic Chinese outfits. So the whole thing is based off of a racist ideal, which is then they brought that into the toy master, which is why I said, oh, you look a little produced a more like temperate climbs kind of thing.
Speaker 1:He's gonna ask what a Cheswick mate, it's the yeah, it's the was doctor who's always been like that, isn't it? The kind of Comments like that either fall really well or they fall like Starbeast flat the flatter than a pancake, and sometimes they work and sometimes it work, they don't work. Also, you keep calling the toy master, which reminds me of some Jeffrey draft from Toy maker yeah. Just a giraffe. No, no so there wasn't much more on unleashed other than just kind of how they filmed it and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a bit. It's a bit lightweight, if I'm honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, make your boys job experience. I went out, skip that crap. Yeah, just tell me how you did it. Yeah, do some behind the scenes stuff.
Speaker 1:Yes, plot wise Might have been me, but there was a plot hole, that kind of Glaringly obvious. So, right, they made a big deal about that really weedy laser thing At the start, about how we needed to power it up and they needed all those people to aim it. So they had the guy in the turret and the people holding the tubes, but all the power and the controls were coming from inside the building. So when, yeah, toy maker is sitting on the gun, having pushed all those people off which is quite funny kind of line why didn't someone just walk in and switch it off from inside the building? Because that's, if you look, that's where what's-a-face was controlling it and doing all the targeting. He was doing the joysticks, but someone could have just turned the power off, flip the fuses.
Speaker 2:Laser, I think I.
Speaker 1:Know you have to turn your brain off, but I'm sitting there going. Yeah, why didn't they just turn the power off? It would have been fine.
Speaker 2:But what I was? The opposite I'm going. Why do you need a little man sitting on it when this is a Calculated shot that you could hit? If you could hit a mouse on the moon, I'm a little man they were talking about.
Speaker 1:We need some way to kill the doctor with a giant laser. Right, this is how we're gonna do it, yeah we're gonna right backwards from that yeah okay, why is there a little seat on this laser gun?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, every often you kind of have to turn your brain off and also and I know I shouldn't laugh, but the way they disguise will in that first bit, by having some some random old bloke in the background With his hands, yeah, head off, just like. I know that, I know why they did it and they talked about it last week and stuff like that, but it was a bit awkward and it was like Just little things but can't be helped and I think I think, before we go on to the big thing yeah, the thing considering that was shot in June 2022 and it's now November, december 2023.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The fact that we didn't know the entire storyline had that explored for us is Testament to the new way of doing things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll give him that there was yeah, there's certain quotes that I've read from RTD bigging up things that were not real. So he big up the fact that the guy going into the toy shop in the trailer was someone really big and it turned out to be Nobody he big to a scene they filmed outside with the doctor and somebody else, which no one spotted. Well, what was that? There wasn't anything, unless it's both of them standing together. There wasn't anything else. So I think he's, I Think maybe he either got over excited and just been bigging it up when actually there wasn't anything, or he was deliberately Bigging up things that weren't real. One or the other.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I do these both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think actually that's a version, because again in the old like Moffi era, the BBC had more holes in the colander. Oh, we would have had the whole episode. Well, it would have been in a trailer.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it would have been. Yeah, you'd have when the money, when they spoiled the master, come back. John Sims bastard, it was like, oh, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2:And the big thing that we'll talk about in a second would have been in the trailer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That you know everyone. Everybody would have known about it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fact that had a closed set, there was minimal stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, you go. Well, actually, that's, that's good, and you kept under wraps for a year and a quarter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're in a half or whatever it was, because really all we got was those photos of those scenes, the start. My son said what's that about? I said that's just Londoner, we can make. Oh yeah. So yeah, that's all we got.
Speaker 2:We didn't get the smile. You can tell it's part funded by Disney. Oh, yeah, yeah, you can just have a. What was going on here?
Speaker 1:I tell you what, though for every good piece, we have talked about CGI, but for every good shot and stuff like some of the camera work and that was just weird there was some really odd shooting, especially that final scene when it was them versus him. It's really badly shot where the camera was trying to be dramatic and over the shoulder, but it was just. I Can't really see what's going on and it's a bit weird. It just felt like they were overcompensating at times, and when he was going and had a mini meltdown telling the unit about how humankind is really bad, it was come over here, there's over here. Then it was over here. It's like really, I'm getting old but I really can't follow what's going on.
Speaker 2:They're trying to do it for impact and the classic, the classic way of doing it nowadays is just so many cuts. Go, go, go, go, go go. Yeah, yeah, it's just like a well shot scene and a well delivered dialogue. It's far better. Yeah, just try to Stop trying to add levity to a scene. Already has it, naturally. Yeah, because just let him do his thing, and especially when you've got like an actor like Tenon or the old Patrick Harris, or or if you've got good actors who can just go.
Speaker 2:Do you know what? I'm gonna give you a monologue mate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if they can, monologue champ, then let's let a monologue what doctor who is built around the monologues? At least one doctor, even Jody, has a monologue. That kind of works, and they don't need a hundred camera angles of the same thing, it's just them talking to screen or talking to a character or whatever.
Speaker 2:But they're trying to add things and make it different and new. When you go away, he doesn't make it bad, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:we don't like you, we like we like old. Yeah, yeah, speaking of which? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Can I?
Speaker 1:just and I haven't got the audio clip and I really should have the audio clip yeah, the fact that we predicted that 100% and then dismissed it, because, do you remember I read that on a Facebook post About by generation and we laughed it off and said it's not gonna happen. It won't happen, that's just bonkers that's the one I've, that's someone. So where that post came from I can't even tell you. It was a random Facebook post. You know, when you get Facebook and you get those pages that are promoted to you, it was a random doctor who fan page with an image on it. So this is what's gonna happen he's gonna buy, generate and the doctors are gonna go off and do their own thing. And we predicted it 100% and then we discounted it.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a victory for Janice Van Damme there. Yeah, we predicted it.
Speaker 1:Your idea would have been better and I will Give you my what I would have done had I been forced to do that in a minute.
Speaker 2:So yes, yeah, oh to doctors in one.
Speaker 1:What do you think?
Speaker 2:Don't know why I think I think the proper right okay, when you write a set of rules For a universe. The universe must behave. You know you can't behave via those several, correct? So if they have mentioned this mythical Bygeneration, at least once, just once.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I said it's a possibility. That would be fine. It's, it was just. It was just weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's I. I liked it and I didn't like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I like them interacting, yes, but I didn't like the the End reason why they did it. So this is how I would. If I was told, right, we're gonna split the doctors up and you're gonna get to, I would have had 14 tenants doctor die at the end. Hmm, just like finish the regeneration or something weird, something like that. Yeah, but not have him hanging around so they could have interacted together and then suddenly he could have got Really a bit unwell or something like that, and then he just and then it then Is this by generation thing? Yeah, I could. I like the concept of that and his reasons. In doctor and leash work, we never had to a freshly regenerated doctor interacting with his older self.
Speaker 1:I thought, yeah, I quite like that. Yeah, but I Would have liked to have seen 14 die at the end of that episode, fully, but still had that interaction, exactly how they played it out, except for the stupid TARDIS thing. But I'll come to that mate and Let him die, because if that, see. So this is where they've again, and I don't know how they're gonna do it, but they've written themselves into a hole now. So what you've got? You've got a fully functioning doctor not meta doctor or any of that nonsense living on earth with a fully functioning TARDIS.
Speaker 1:And we know for a fact that shooty Gato, as doctor, is going to be on earth with Mel in the next series. So what they're gonna do, or about 14 is just on his holiday or every time they come back, 14 is always just out down the shop. It feels like Once again and it was nice seeing all the puppets go across they haven't got the balls to kill off David Tennant twice, so they've written it in such a way that gives him a happy and ending in avert commerce Without the balls to get rid of him, because they've already killed him off once and they want to take the shine off that and the idea, the concept of the both together was good, but they should have killed him off at the end and drawn a line under it, because now for their forever, gonna have the spectre of 14 on earth Doing something else there, unless they go parallel universe.
Speaker 2:Well, even then they said, oh yeah, he's got a fully functioning TARDIS, but you've got to go anywhere and you go, all right, and they get. Oh yeah, but I've been quick trip tomorrow.
Speaker 1:I'll do time three times yeah.
Speaker 2:Literally, mate. This is. This is like dinner next day. You've been already nipped off three times because you're bored. It's Because even RTD and elitid or you, he goes. Oh yeah, he is done. This is, this is his story finished.
Speaker 1:It's not a home, and drink tea.
Speaker 2:Yes, also, it's still the doctor. End of this is still the same entity that's done all of that stuff. Yes, he's put his feet up and he's got a smoking jacket on, but if the world is in trouble, we'll just go.
Speaker 1:Now I got this and we're about it and the concept is now Is he immortal? Can he die because he's regenerated? What happens to him as a, as a person? Is he gonna die from natural old age? Is he gonna turn into Tom Baker's curator from the 50th? Is he what happens to that person because he's regenerated now, or is he gonna be like with the hand? Is he gonna regenerate again when he dies? And we've got two 15s floating about? You know what I'm like with numbers. This is another crazy number thing that's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so. I like literally split, haven't they? So you just go. Yet a regeneration happened and the regenerate elements are 14 a 15. He's not 15.
Speaker 1:This is the numbers again, easy, 15. Technically he's not. He's like an embryo that's splitting two. So he's like a Identity, not identical twin of himself. Ah, it's again.
Speaker 1:It's this concept of oh, I've got a really crazy idea. I'm just gonna do this because this is, this is a change canon, and he made a flippant comment about fans not liking change, but it's not thought through. It's like the war doctor thing again, it's not thought through, although that kind of worked out alright for him. It's like we've got this idea, we're just gonna run with it and just see what happens, and I don't believe they've thought that a hundred percent through. That actually, christmas episode looks like it's based on earth. We know Russell likes to base his stories on earth and use a viewpoint of the companion, which is great. I agree with that. Yeah, so, but he's on earth With another doctor who's on earth as well I was and knowing the character and we know we, I think we know the character quite well.
Speaker 1:Would the doctor sit at home reading the telegraph with his feet up, having a cup of tea while the earth is burning? Good, that's alright. My other half, my, my regenerated self, will sort it out when he knows he can help. It's like Marvel, when they paint themselves into a hole with the Avengers and then had to explain why the Avengers weren't coming to help every In every other film when they weren't in it. So, oh yeah, we're thought our thoughts.
Speaker 1:Not here, he's currently on holiday, or he's in knees in our garden, oh well, I don't know. I think I think if they killed him off and gave him a proper ending, but with that by generation I don't mind that and I agree with you they should at least explain it, and I it would have worked. I think, if they're gonna do it, maybe they should have made more about how it happened, rather than just been shot by a laser, and actually maybe built it into that three-story arc that we talked about, about actually the toy maker wanting to do something with it, I don't know but actually make it less of an accident, more of a this. Really, this happened, this happened for a reason, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it does also affect the question, because if they've said, oh, if you take too much damage, you haven't got time to regenerate. I Hate to say it, but being shot through the chest With a space laser that can shoot satellites out of the sky, yeah, and, more annoyingly, when he stands up to go. There's no gay finger a whole.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my son was going where's the hole?
Speaker 2:You should have a hole, literally, here. My back should be a bloody girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Even if a seven-year-old kid could say where's the giant hole from the laser, it's like, ah no. For me it was like we haven't got the balls to kill him off. So we're going to make up some convoluted stories so we can keep him. We're going to change Canon because that's fun. We're going to piss the fans off because that's fun. Yeah, and yeah, if the concept it worked. But it was just on my brain sitting there going, yeah, that'll work. How are they going to do that? Oh, all, right, he's having tea now. Right, how's that going to work?
Speaker 2:So why Right?
Speaker 1:I've got more, I haven't finished yet Continue I have things. No, you keep going, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the reason they said they wanted to do like the sit at home and drink tea and read the telegraph was because he'd been running for so long and hadn't stopped and was like running on fumes.
Speaker 1:Which is a daft reason for having the same face. I'll get that in a minute, yeah, which is crap.
Speaker 2:But then the next version is to the same place, yeah. So, yeah, you're going. Oh, yeah, I'm going to sit and heal and get better, but you'll regenerate yourself is still in that exact same place. Yeah, and that's this. By generation heals that, because he gets to, he goes. Oh, I've seen what you do in the rest of your life, so actually that's going to be where I start from and you go wait, why don't? I don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the concept of oh well, it's all right because now you can rest, but you're him and you are just leaving from this point, yes, and you have all. You've retained everything about him. You've not absorbed his future to come. Unless that's how they're going to, weirdly, and the whole concept is he gonna? Is 14 going to regenerate again? Who knows? But he doesn't. There's not. As if you like, he read yeah, that's a sunny, wipes the slate clean. Obviously, I think that's what they've implied, that by doing that, it absolves him of all the things.
Speaker 1:But now the excuse why 14 had the same face was rubbish. It was again. It was like right, we got David Tennant coming back. We need an excuse, we need a reason why he's gonna say oh no, it's because he's really tired. They're Capaldi. At least they explained why he had the face of the Roman guy. Yeah, properly, this is. It just felt like oh shit, we've got to explain why David Tennant's face is back. That's just, we'll just wing it. And then it's like oh yeah, that'll do, that'll do, we'll make it really like a that the villain get involved. We'll just. What to say? He's, he's a bit tired. And it wasn't. It wasn't as if he came to that conclusion. It was Donna that told him oh, maybe that's because why you're tired, you've got the same face. Yeah, that is just felt like a cop out another. Just, oh, we'll just, we'll just write that it'll be fine. No, don't notice. Yes, I had more.
Speaker 2:I had more. I think, while you ponder upon your more bonus, the big question did the mini series feel like a celebration of 60 years of Doctor who?
Speaker 1:No, absolutely not. In no way did it feel like an anniversary series it, even though we never. We already said it was never going to be a multi doctor thing.
Speaker 2:It didn't reference it.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, not that we wanted it to be super self referential, but it didn't reference anything. It didn't celebrate the history. It felt more like disconnecting from the history and going on its own way. That's actually to me.
Speaker 2:It felt less about Doctor who years gone by and more about this is what we're doing for the future, because actually, oh, thinking in that respect that they've parked tenant on earth and actually we have parked Doctor who up until now is done, it is ended. That's where it ends with 14 season. One is a new, brand new thing. Yeah, and looking at that way makes far more sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this was less about celebrating the history more than about disconnecting from the history and starting again, and I don't like that. I think I wasn't expecting it. It would be nice to celebrate it what's come before, good and bad, what's come before but they chose not to do that and they've chosen to go a different path. And, yeah, these episodes felt like a mini, mini series of two mediocre episodes, run of the mill, standard stuff, and that one was a wasted opportunity and it needed to be longer. But we've already talked about it multiple times Dropping shooting at the D-pad wouldn't have worked. It needed something to bridge the gap.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Supplementary question then for you has David Tennant tarnished his legacy by coming back His Doctor who legacy?
Speaker 2:I think if you compare these three specials to his previous work, they don't compare. I think when you compare, like the good episodes Link, family, blood, etc that they're just better than this. But again, it's not meant to be that version, it's meant to be different version, but in this third episode it was very much that version. It was.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I don't see any difference between the character he played now and the character he played then. There's little, if any, development other than he looks older, sounds older. He played 10 again, but he was called 14 in name only. But he's exactly the same thing and that disappoints me because it's not just him. It was written in that way and, to be honest, it was written in that way as a nostalgia grab to try and hook in those people who have left Doctor who or become ambivalent and oh. David Tennant and Donna.
Speaker 1:I had a. I remember that that was really good. I'll watch that. It's yeah. It felt the more I've gone through it and I've looked back at it it felt like quite a cheap way of trying to get old viewers back in by making the easiest way possible. I don't see any development between 10 and 14. He's the same. He's playing exactly the same character. Now, if Tennant had come in and had been written for him and he played a completely different character, that would have been better. But with three episodes he's never going to do it because they aren't enough development. A whole series of him playing a weird version of 10 would have been great, but we don't got that Supplementary.
Speaker 2:Supplementary question Would the idea have worked with nine or 11? So Chris Neckleston comes back as 14. Or Matt Smith comes back as 14. Would that work? Or was Tennant's character enough to come back as this new old version?
Speaker 1:Outside of the storyline in the real world? No, because they were looking. I've been cynical here. Like I said before, to grab the nostalgia factor and the Big Bang we need something to sort of like change everything. I think we talked about it before, didn't we, about having a Hollywood actor to play the Doctor for a short period. It was the Big Bang reset button thing. So I know I don't think those two coming back would have worked. Had they come back in, the story that had been different. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's difficult Because obviously, like Neckleston's, one was fresh from the time. War was very much.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, I think he was Ignoring the fact he left and all the personal reasons around that. He played that role perfectly. If you look at the continuation 9, 10, 11, it worked because it fitted. 11 if he came back, yeah, I could see Matt Smith coming back and being, because he can play old very well, matt Smith, yeah, so that was by the end 11 was quite jaded.
Speaker 2:So you think well, actually would it have worked if you put a different Doctor?
Speaker 1:in that role. It's difficult, isn't it? Because what might have been comes up so many times? Yes, Unfortunately, they wrote it just as if. Actually, I read somewhere oh, again, whether it's true or not, I think it was David Tennant. He might have been on one of the unleashed things or something.
Speaker 1:No, interview with Doctor who magazine where he said that originally, oh, the story I don't know if it was the 60th was going to be, or they used stories that were flashbacks to 10 and they changed it.
Speaker 1:So you could I don't know if that was true or not, I can't remember the exact context of it but you could have easily had three of these episodes that could have been a flashback to 10, rescuing 15, but then you'd have to the regenerations would have to have changed. He sure you would have had to regenerate into him. The 60th could have been a 10-donner story based in that time period where they rescued 15 and 15 goes on from there. That would have kind of worked. It just feels for me that I don't know. It feels there's lots of reasons why they've done what they've done, right or wrongly, and it feels a bit of a waste and, coupled with the, we all live happily ever after we haven't got the balls to kill anyone off, ever ending. It felt they dodged that deliberately when actually they could have done it, and done it nice, and had him die again with his future self already there and stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like the fact that they just shot him in the chest with a laser, I was not expecting that. That caught me off guard and I went ooh, that's quite new.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was quite quick and there was no dramatic build up. Bang, it was just done. Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And he went oh wow, oh cool, we're going to get two. He's going to come in and deal with a toy market and win the day. Oh sweet Toy maker, make up Fucking bollocks. I've got master on the brain. Yeah, yeah, yes, toy maker.
Speaker 1:I thought I got again. I understand why they did it, but I thought the game of catch was just naff. It was filmed really badly, like I said earlier, where you couldn't really see what was going on, and it was just. It felt inexplicable at times that the two doctors were doing what we used to do when we play catch standing right next to each other, just tossing the ball to them like underarm. They were just lobbing at each other. It was like why, why would, why would they do that? And I missed the I because it was badly filmed. I missed the bit where we dropped the ball. At the end I was like, oh, I dropped the ball.
Speaker 2:What happened? Because it was really annoying. If I may, if you're trying to beat the toy maker at catch, surely you just stand close to each other and then just throw it like half way in front of you and go.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, so that was lame. It was, I don't know. Maybe at that point I was just getting put off by the fact he's walking around these pants and it reminded me of breaking bad. So, speaking of man in his pants, what do we think? A shooty as a, as an introduction. He's got a lot of energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the problem is he's a man in his pants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was quite distracting, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also no one. No one said it. So I was waiting for a punchline where someone someone would say and get that man some trousers. Or Donna would go, got no trousers. But no one. It was like no one. It's like that weird thing where someone's standing in the room and no one dares say anything and it's like I was waiting for a joke about his trousers and his pants or his junk or something, and it was like it was a classic RTD joke that didn't appear. It's like come on, talk about his penis. That's what. Wait for the joke. And it didn't happen.
Speaker 2:Maybe I've gone too far, but it didn't happen and it was just like oh, right, obviously we've, we've, we've referenced it before being stupid, but the whole the toy masters only just gone, perhaps dimension to work? I'm going to hit the Taj for us, kid hammer, oh God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there it is. There's the big reset button again, but in a different form. It's a giant hammer. But again, that whole doctor living on earth lame ass stories as a waste. I like his. I like his TARDIS with a jukebox. Because I had to hurriedly explain to my son what a jukebox was, he said what's that? It's a jukebox. What's a jukebox? Oh my God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's even older than me.
Speaker 2:But no, a long time ago, when records existed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's got a lot of energy. I like him Initially, yeah, so he's not playing old, he's playing young. He will, he will. I'm not going to dodge this elephant in the room. He will piss a lot of right wing people off in America because he is going to be very gay and a lot of those people are not going to like that at all. There'll be a lot of people raging on YouTube overnight tonight.
Speaker 2:But people rage on YouTube about Doctor who. I can't imagine a doctoring happening.
Speaker 1:I suppose. So we roll on into Christmas, don't we? I saw that. Do you watch the trailer that came after?
Speaker 2:Yes, but the goblin came in a ship.
Speaker 1:It looks all right, it should be standard, fair, if nothing else. Yeah, 10 million viewers, that's the key, that's what we want. Yeah, I'll put the long term predictions out there now, because RTD seems to be revisiting old things that the companion will fall in love with the doctor and the doctor either reject her because he's a time lord or reject her because he's gay, but he'll revisit that again. I can see it now. I can see it.
Speaker 1:That's what he'll do, because he seems to be revisiting a lot of stuff recently, and I can't see him not revisiting that old trope, because he's done it one or two many times in the past Too many. But we shall see till Christmas. So.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on the plus side, I'm excited for Christmas. Yeah, and, to be honest, that's all the sick that you needed to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's watch.
Speaker 2:With Jody. We were not excited. No, we were in fact barely clasped to Dr who fans at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, christmas should be good. I'm still a little bit nervous about what's to come. I'll be honest with the whole elephant in the room thing that we've discussed at length.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That thing will still cause issue if that is the route they wish to take and drive those messages home. It's going to piss a lot of people off and there's going to be a lot of infighting and stuff like that and I really can't be doing it. But I'm hoping there's enough stuff around that to take the To not make that the big thing and there's some good stories and it just kind of blends into the background a bit.
Speaker 2:I think Okay, so how do you do the 2023 sensibilities without it being in your face? Because, again, in Unleashed, they talked about Toy Master and basically said this character was completely racist, not appropriate for his day, in Asian, anyway, shape or form, and we've made sure to reference that. So this is a white man playing a white man who's being a racist, and we've made sure to cover that. And you go yeah, that's great and all, but how do you update an old trope without, for one a better phrase, shoving it in someone's face? I think that's.
Speaker 1:I think it's Doctor who and 2005. Doctor who did all that Like. Look at Captain Jack Harness as a character On the sexual fancied. Everyone slept with everyone played by a gay actor. No one battered an island because it was part of the story and didn't distract from the story by being so wooden and so obvious. I think that's where Starbeast failed, because it was continuously hitting you with the message at the expense of the story. But Doctor who Russell's Doctor who always was quite progressive and didn't. It didn't need to be exaggerated. I think it was just there and you just accepted it and it was like okay that's fine, like the fact that the new Doctor is coming across as quite gay and quite camp.
Speaker 1:It just worked because that's his character and it might not even reference it again, but they don't need to because it's just there and it just For me it should just be normal as part of society and I think when it becomes, it just becomes the reason why they've written a TV show that a lot of Jodie's stories were there to deliver some message about how bad the British Empire was at the expense of what we're actually trying to talk about. It just becomes. Well, I've tuned out now I'm not interested. But if they have good stories with well-rounded three-dimensional characters based on real-life people, real-life experiences, then they don't need to just really bang on about it. If they've got like the toy maker, that are good villains or whatever, but are from a different time, you just tweak it and make it work.
Speaker 1:And, to be honest, I'll be honest, I hadn't really thought about that until you mentioned it when it was on Unleashed. Oh, actually, yeah, that is quite dodgy ground, but they just twisted it very slightly, changed the look of him Done, don't have to worry about it. I think that's it A lot of things today cram in home this message at the expense of good storytelling, and if that happens, then it just becomes you just tune out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think well, will we have, like in Jodie's first series when they did the Last on the Bus?
Speaker 1:The Last on the Bus.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the several moments in segregation in. Us history, the Last on the Bus. The Last on the Bus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, in the Good Rugs, the Parks, I think I covered the fact I forgot her name really well there, because obviously they made a big thing of her companion in time being black and the whole segregation element. Obviously, the joke is, why are all time travelers white? Because actually if you're black and you know drive traveling, it's not a fun jaunt. So will that be touched on again or will it just be actually? What else on the Doctor deal with it?
Speaker 1:They kind of did it with Bill and 12, when they went to Victorian, yeah, and they touched on it there again, I think, where the storyline calls for it, because now the Doctor's black, so that's going to be interesting, especially when he goes back in time. You would expect, and I would expect the writers, knowing the way they are, to reference that, and I think that's valid. I think they need to Because it, rightly or wrongly and it's mostly wrongly it is part of our national heritage in England, but also the world's. Now you can't avoid it, and to avoid it and not reference it is as bad as hammering it home and making it. Yeah, I agree, I think you do have to reference it.
Speaker 2:The program picture of the Doctor with a massive Afro. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you have to reference something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Again, but long as it's in the context of the story and the story's good enough, then it should become natural and a part of the story. And if you've got character because the thing with Rosa Parks you had the space racists who I could never remember his name he was a two dimensional character that served nothing to the plot whatsoever because he was so two dimensional. But if they'd actually built him into a decent character, the concept of the why he was there and the reasons for it would have been better than we're just going to do this episode because we want to do, we want to talk about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, like you said, we've kept in Jack, in 2005, six, the early years, I think, another reason why that works it wasn't pushed in your face but also the world was not so divided and back lines had not been drawn. Yeah, because, again, looking with Rotary Spectacles, it's. I don't remember it being like it is now, and that might be because I'm a straight white man at around 40. But it's, is it now more in the public, sort of like I store? Is it the fact that actually that conversation we weren't having them then and nothing was so divisive. It's like 2005, you've seen, like this golden era of yeah, it was all cool guys, it was great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I think back then the world wasn't as divided as it is now. So not going into the political sphere, but we didn't have this. What is it? They call it Populism. Yes, so it is now very much right wing, left wing, but for different reasons.
Speaker 1:And what you used to have in the history, social media, was there, but was it such a big thing as it is now? It was in its infancy, wasn't it? Yeah, so that that was another thing that's not there. I was going to say something else that came and also there's been this this movement in TV, hollywood and other things has lurched very much to the left in terms of the content they're producing and has become very focused on that diversity element for right, wrong reasons, don't get me wrong but has lurched so much that way that it has created a void of people who feel again, rightly or wrongly, disenfranchised by what they're seeing and they're getting angry because there's nothing on TV now that's written for the likes of me. So I'm just going to vent on it. Yeah, I think you're right. I think really I'm trying to say is the world is more divided now than it was 20 odd years ago.
Speaker 2:And it's. It's. It's like we. It's like we touched on the past. It's not the case of your. It's either you're with me or you're against me. It's not you have a different point of view. It's you are not on my side. Therefore, you are my enemy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't debate, you've got to pick a fight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a, there's a topic for future.
Speaker 1:Is society weird?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I think we've. I think sci-fi has touched on this. I know, like the the Orville with the social media planet I've not seen all of them, I've heard of it, but basically they have a thing where you have, where everyone's, a social score and if they like what you're doing, you get a plus, and if you don't like it you get a minus. And, like, you literally see people get canceled in real time.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that not black?
Speaker 2:mirror. Yeah, black mirror.
Speaker 1:I've done it as well, but we'll get it first, we could block people yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you just go well, it's just meant to put that's kind of where it's heading, almost, isn't it? We just go. The fact that, if, if you have an opinion and the majority not agree to not agree with your opinion, your opinion is therefore wrong. It's like the whole, like America, is a classic. Their first amendment is freedom of speech. It's literally you go, well, I've spoken. Oh, sorry, mate, you spoke the wrong thing, but didn't done that line there. So I can do that. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, I don't like to, but then again, the idea of freedom of speech would not be freedom of consequences. And you go well, where where's the line?
Speaker 1:blur this. Yeah, it is like there's a, there's a like a PhD thesis on the the Doctor who and the change of society and how it's affected it. Because, yeah, it in some ways, if you look at just purely the Doctor who fandom, it's mirrored the real world in terms of the way it has been divided on this left and right aspect of well, this. I don't agree with this. Therefore, you're wrong. No, I, I like the fact that they're doing this. You're wrong. We're all going to fight and then it's never going to get better and it's like. It is quite like what's happened in real life. Everyone used to get on at one point, but now they don't because we've been forced to pick a side, and I don't like picking sides. I've talked about that before. I just want to watch Doctor who and enjoy it and not have to fight about things.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the thing we're. We're both old or older than we were, and it's too much of an effort.
Speaker 1:He was going yeah, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I just want to watch my TV show in peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just let me sit there and quietly just watch it without fighting.
Speaker 2:I don't want to argue with the internet. It's on the internet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and that's a whole again. That's the whole subject itself. There are people who live their lives on Twitter or X and they fight with people and they just get into this whole back tit for tat stuff and it's just like all that negativity must really just affect people. I hate it.
Speaker 2:I just hate the fighting. It's not just Doctor who, it's the tribalness of it all. Yeah, but people also end up in their own echo chamber of just seeing support and views and then suddenly they go. Oh, everyone agrees with me, because all I see on social media is stuff that's the same as me. Algorithms are evil, basically guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what I do with Twitter when I do go on it is I try and follow both sides. Because you get into that echo chamber for a while I was like, oh yeah, I agree with you. I think I'll actually know. Hang on a minute, what are the other sides saying? Because I just want a bit of a balance to understand. Yeah, because I think you've talked about before, you can't have a debate with someone anymore. It's that right and wrong. But debating is something that's skill in itself to actually listen, to go and someone go. I don't believe you, but I'm going to listen to you and then I'm going to provide a counter argument.
Speaker 2:No, it's now your role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the end of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the thing to actually have a well-constructed argument with no, you're just a dickhead. You get well actually. No, you've got to listen to a thing this person has said. You just call him a dickhead because they don't agree with you.
Speaker 2:And it's like even the stupidest things I see, like random things on Twitter or Facebook, and be like oh, if these two superheroes were to fight, which one would win and why? And some of them are literally this one wins because they're the best. And then they put it goes no, they're not the best, this one's the best, you're going fuck me. Generally, this is just ridiculous. And then other people are trying to like give a fully realized critique of actually going. Well, actually, this person has these abilities, but this person has these abilities and therefore, if you compare one with the other, actually this one should probably win, and then you're going to be on what the right ones do, and that version versus your dickhead mate is so far missing. Like I said, people don't have a conversation anymore. There's no, there's no agreeing, it's just you're wrong.
Speaker 1:I don't like you, so bring it back to Doctor who, do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we went on a tangent. Oh wow, that's what people want. They want the Gromp.
Speaker 1:Gold men.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm going to get a shout out for this.
Speaker 1:I think. In conclusion, I looking forward to Christmas. I think shooty will be entertaining. It will be interesting to see. My worries are with RTD and he's writing if he goes off of one. But hey, we'll just see how that pans out. I thought these three episodes weren't the 60th. There were the three episodes to get it back on track and I was a bit disappointed in the way that they killed off 14. 14. Yeah, I'm going to sit down and work out these numbers because I'm really confused.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think, like you said, they were three episodes Doctor who. They were all right. There was nothing groundbreaking, was it the 50th?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Was it bad? No, it was all right. It was what it was, with some asterisks. Yeah, yeah, it was fine and I think, to be fair, that's probably damning with praise, because it was simply fine. Give it six weeks, I'll forget about it. Yeah, and I think that's the problem. The 50th, you know, oh yeah, that was good. There's a war doctor and they would write back at this ad for feying and he go oh, that was really cool, and this you go. Oh yeah, there was three episodes of Doctor who and I think that's going to be the problem. Where it was, just it was. It will be one of those episodes. We go yeah, that happened, didn't it? It'll be the absorbal off. We go that was better, so it'll do, apparently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it happens, we just happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it happened, and no one cared, and I think that's the issue we've got here. The 60th happened and it was nice to see the companion or the old companions, all the doctors doing like media tour and like promoting everything. But actually the episodes themselves All right, yeah, they're average. And again online you've got two sides. That was the worst thing ever or that was perfect. It couldn't be proven any way, shape or form, yeah, and you go. Well, both of these sides cannot be correct.
Speaker 1:And you both wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we rolled into it. Yeah, it did what it needed to do. It got us willing to watch Christmas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it got us excited for Doctor who again, which again we touched on that. We were getting excited for these episodes and I think I'd learned the lesson that I got too excited and I should have brought my expectations down a bit, but at the same time I was surprised at the direction they went.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that's summed up quite well. So will we meet again before Christmas?
Speaker 1:Or are we going to do a recording on Christmas Day? Look at that, could you imagine?
Speaker 2:Oh, could you imagine.
Speaker 1:Straight after the episode, roll straight into it we could.
Speaker 2:So that's a bold plan. I will be full of turkey, but, all joking aside, is there going to be an interlude in between now and Christmas? So are we going to have Doctor who again, or are we going to talk about the politics of America and Britain and how it changed in 2005?
Speaker 1:Sounds like our audience wants us to go deep into the weeds of populism and the rise of the new right and far left. I don't know. We've got two weekends before the 25th. Obviously we're going to record at some point after the 25th, the review of Doctor who. It won't be as efficient as these reviews have been. I don't know, I think we need to reconvene and work out whether we can squeeze another one in, maybe a supplementary, maybe, maybe we should do and this is live folks.
Speaker 1:We normally don't do this conversation. We should have a supplementary episode, if we can squeeze it in. What is our favourite Doctor who episode or story One from the classic one from you who maybe just discussed that as a bit of a like- aperitif.
Speaker 2:That might be quite good. What is your favourite episode and why?
Speaker 1:Classic and new who? I think that's four altogether.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's quite good. We can squeeze that one, depending on how quickly this is going to be out. Dear listeners, what are your favourite episodes of New who and Doctor who, and why, yeah?
Speaker 1:there you go, and whether we agree with you.
Speaker 2:And or actually, or what do people think? Our favourite episodes?
Speaker 1:are. That'd be good yeah.
Speaker 2:But people, some people might know mine.
Speaker 1:I probably can guess the New who one, and I don't know about Old who. I could probably pitch which Doctor it would be and the reason why, the two reasons why, and then I can go from there.
Speaker 2:There you go, spoilers Uncancelled, yeah, uncancelled.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's good, we shall do that.
Speaker 2:Yes, perfect, cool. I think that brings us nicely to this episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, Until next time, folks, we'll try and cheer up a little bit, and we'll see you soon. Yeah, bye.