Journeys in Fandom
Step into the world of fandom with Matt and Tim as they take you on a wild ride through the pop culture universe. This isn't just any podcast - it's a journey with two mates who are unapologetically passionate about all things comics, film, TV and more.
Journeys in Fandom
Doctor Who: Wild Blue Yonder Review
We reflect on the fallout from last week's Doctor Who episode. Does it deserve the flak it received, or was it misunderstood? We also touch on the changing landscape of TV viewing habits as we dissect the ratings and how they might have affected the episode's reception.
Next, we shift our gaze to the latest Doctor Who episode, Wild Blue Yonder, pulling it apart to reveal the plot intricacies, character developments, and the CGI spectacle. We pay special attention to the return of the Timeless Child - a subject that has sparked much debate amongst fans. As die-hard Whovians, we appreciate the classic callbacks in this episode and discuss how it stacks up against the first special. We also speculate on the impact of Russell T. Davies' return on the grand finale.
As we approach the end of our conversation, we look to the upcoming episode, "The Giggle", sharing our hopes and predictions. We also take time to rank the Doctor Who Christmas specials and their ratings, wrapping up with some last-minute completion chat. So, step into our TARDIS as we journey through time and space again to reveal all things Doctor Who.
Hello and welcome to episode 12 of Dinnish and Fandom Yay we're back and I don't know if we are Grumpy tonight.
Speaker 2:I have, after last week, determined not to be Grumpy.
Speaker 1:We were told we were slightly grumpy last week. Yeah, which is probably fair, we were. Actually before we start with episode 2 of the specials in the last week, have you pondered more episode 1?
Speaker 2:Yes, I still stand. Oh no, I stand by half what I said, and part of it links into the review of this episode. I stand by the fact it was too preachy. I've come out and said that and the reason being is I criticise Chris Chibnall, jodie Whittaker's episode for being preachy and I'd be a hypocrite not to call out RTD for being preachy as well. So I'm standing by that. It was preachy, it served a purpose and loads of people, as we suspected, liked it, but for me it was forced and cringy, so I stand by that. It is like I'll be a hypocrite not to do it.
Speaker 1:I delved into the bile of the internet. Oh dear, I thought rather than dispensing it for a change of what a taste-tomus it was like, and I either found people loved it or hated it. Yeah, very polarised there was no as-alright and I think our view was as-alright, but it wasn't. I think when I've spoken to people since I've said if you compare it to the Whittaker and Capaldi eras, it was the best thing ever. If you compare it to the Tenant era, it was an average episode. It would have gotten in a week.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:I think that's the context of what you're comparing it to. If you're comparing Tenant to Tenant sorry boys, it just doesn't compare, whereas if you're comparing it to Late Era Whittaker, it gets a different. It's great, it's wonderful. Love it, thank you. Please come again and also like with the what we dubbed the 2023 stuff.
Speaker 1:I actually spoke to a few people who are in that community and sort of said actually, from your standpoint, what do you reckon? And some of them said, yeah, it's alright, and others said, oh, it was a bit much. And others went, oh god, really. So I think you were right when I said it was a bit much and the explanation of, oh, you're a man you wouldn't understand, obviously, let it go, kind of thing. People just went really, and even those that are members of the community that it was aimed at, lots weren't feeling it. But, with the same token, I think those that didn't feel seen previously and get referenced in a mainstream TV show yeah, that's a thing. And I think, like we touched on last time, we are not the target audience to grumpy four year old men, are not it?
Speaker 2:No, and I think that's it. I think and I'll touch back on this as we do the review. Second thing I think I naively thought, even though we talked about it and I said that it wouldn't be I naively thought this would be one big celebration out of 50, it's not. That's just facing. It's a mini series of three episodes, when really the only the final episode is going to be any significance. The other two are just a leading and a reminder and an introduction to Doctor who. So that was my other thing. I was a little bit naive. Even though I didn't know I was, if that makes sense, I went into it thinking, oh, it's going to be quite exciting and actually it was just a standard episode Doctor who and spoilers.
Speaker 2:This one today was similarly. It's a standard episode, with no kind of big self-referential kind of stuff that you get from like the 50th. So I think that's what we're going to get with these three episodes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the brain's gone. I was going to say something really clever and it's totally left me. It'll come back to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, it might not, who knows. Well, while you're thinking, the ratings were interesting do you see how the ratings were?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I've got it here.
Speaker 2:Haven't got the consolidated ratings, so these are the ratings on the night.
Speaker 1:Didn't they send out 5 million people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 5.08, which is surprising.
Speaker 1:Is that good?
Speaker 2:Well, yes and no, so it was up 1.4 billion from the power of the Doctor Jodie's last episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, didn't. Before you tell me what the numbers are for the year that we're thinking of. Was it like 8, 9 million back then? Yes, was that my?
Speaker 2:imagination? No, it was. Where was it? I've got them here. I was looking at that. I didn't realise how high they were back then. Where is it? Yeah, lord season. So Tenant was season two, three and four. Season two 7.8 million average. Season three 8.1 million average. Season four 8.4 million average. So it's interesting. The ratings were interesting because everyone expected them to go up, but they didn't go up by much and I'm not being cynical and I'm not having to go, but I had expected more than a one million difference for Tenant alone pulling in a rating yeah, he was interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we've touched on this in the past and obviously back in that era people consumed TV differently than they do now, because actually, who watches TV anymore? All joking aside, but actually like something live, and if you had, I don't know what the consolidated ratings are now. Is it within seven days? 14 days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not out yet. I think it is within seven days, because it's all the iPlayer stuff as well, which I'm not really yeah, and I think I think that would be different Probably more substantially.
Speaker 1:Like, for example I know I watched it but I had to watch on iPlayer because I was hoping my late 10 minutes late, so my viewing wouldn't count until Consolidated I guess. I don't know, I'm not the BBC.
Speaker 2:No, and and the ratings that Everyone's quoting were released by the BBC, so I don't know how it all works. So, no, it's interesting. I I thought it'd be more, I don't know didn't think it'd be like up in the eight thousand eight millions even. I just thought it'd be more than a one million jump. I thought it'd be a bit higher. Just because it's something new, it's David Tennant but I've interested in this one.
Speaker 1:If it was what? Three Fort, three and a half minutes on that. Yeah for a paradox, or whatever. Us Surely that's still like a 25% increase from that year. Yeah, it's getting a good number of people back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'd be interesting to see what the ratings are for tonight's episode and whether it'll probably drop off a little bit, because it's, yeah, novel to you. I don't generally don't know about surprise. I was expecting higher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's talk about this episode then.
Speaker 2:Yes, wild blue yonder, is that right cuz, I can never say it right wild wide. Why, why, why?
Speaker 1:something blue yonder.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, something blue yonder. I thought it was good. Yeah, it was right. It's right Next week. See you later. No is yeah go ahead.
Speaker 1:I think I like the fact that it was just the two of them. Yeah, and it reminded me of the episode from season four. Is it midnight where?
Speaker 2:They're on the train. Oh, tenant, and what's a face? Yeah, and it's just better than bouncing off of each other. Yeah, and there's like the passengers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with that, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually the two of them just riffing and getting to act at each other and against themselves and Figuring out with the audience. Yeah, yeah and like. That's. The fact that the doctors are smart was his biggest weakness, but like don't just when yeah. I can. I can do the not thinking dogs gonna. I can't do it. I have to like work out what the problem is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought it was good. A good doctor who episode again. Yes, it's not like celebration, it's just a standard doctor, but a good one with a good mystery and I think that's that's. That's the hook was well, what's going on here, how they're gonna get out this very standard doctor who stuff. But yeah, it works. I thought it's good.
Speaker 1:And yeah, you say yeah, and the fact that the audience doesn't know what's going on and we're figuring it out at the same time. The doctor and Donna are. I Wish I sat with you when this was on, when they mentioned the flux.
Speaker 2:Oh good, god, yeah, that was. That was. The only negative Thing is they've basically acknowledged the timeless child in that, in that whole yeah scene and they wait when he's going on with born and gallifrey.
Speaker 1:When you're well, you don't know where you're from, shut up. This is wrong behave Delete that from history They've.
Speaker 2:So I suppose that If you're going to go to that part of the internet again this week, that is what everyone will be having to go there. He's acknowledged it, he's not gonna wreck on it. So yeah, it's disappointing that I thought. I suppose Part of me thought maybe we're just gonna forget about it, like it didn't really happen. But no, he's doubled down on it.
Speaker 1:Well, so I Keep seeing like promo artwork, for you know we're like they had the whole of doctors in the semi-v shape. Yeah it was a current one of the front. I keep seeing promo artwork. I don't know if it is real BBC artwork or just someone doing it because they think it looks cool. Obviously you've got a duty cat where in front and then the older doctors behind, but they're included. The what's the timeless trial doctor. Just don't wait, the run away.
Speaker 2:What the you know? Joe Martin, joe Martin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's the name. Yeah, the future doctor that that appears in the artwork I'm going.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it was official.
Speaker 2:I saw that, yeah, week or so ago and I thought that's interesting. So it's disappointing. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna dwell on it too much. It's a shame because that's just. It's just messed it up anyway. But obviously Is he actually gonna touch on it in series 15 or is he just gonna leave it alone? Who knows?
Speaker 1:I suppose it's there in the back pocket is series one right.
Speaker 2:Oh God, yeah, we just got not yes of course. So he's one of the who universe. Who universe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, sir, yeah part two, episode seven mil war four.
Speaker 2:So I guess, yeah, flux and that aside, yeah I that there wasn't many negatives. I thought the Isaac Newton thing was a bit twee at the start. Yeah, yeah and although the running joke about her saying Mavity instead of gravity was quite funny, I thought I was quite good.
Speaker 1:Yeah but, but it's one of those things we go. Did it add anything? No, are we gonna get complaints about it, hell yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, he reminded me of the Stephen Moffat style of writing. I want to put a dinosaur in London in Victorian. Now I'm gonna build a story around it, I'm going to do this. It just felt a bit and even unnecessary, but anyway, this was an episode about the budget as well, wasn't it? It was as if they thought we need to show people how good our CGI was, and for most part, it wasn't bad, and then for other parts it was awful yeah.
Speaker 2:The big like spaceship style backgrounds really good. Some of the stuff that the the manipulation of the Doctor and Donna's faces was like 2006 kind of CGI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bad, really bad when they, when they grew, and feel the corridor and were like squished, I wait. This reminds me nightmare for a lot of the 90s. Yeah, yeah, there were. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was interesting choices. It was like really good and really bad and there was no middle ground. Yeah, it was like yeah, this is really cool. And then it was like, oh no, this is really awful, so I don't know. So it's like the budget stretch far enough. No pun intended, but I did really stretch that yeah To.
Speaker 1:the robot was fantastic yeah robot was good. There's a prop piece. I looked at it. Oh that's, someone spent some effort on that. That was really nice.
Speaker 2:Again. So again they're kind of physical real life characters like meep. Last week was really good and Equally again they've built something really nice and the set was really good when it wasn't CGI the, so it's a nice, simple set and it works, so it's a really good stuff. It looks nice.
Speaker 1:I think also it had that nod to the old days of running down corridors.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's one big long corridor, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you need, that's a corridor, but the fact they were able to set a story in a corridor, yeah, effectively it was good writing.
Speaker 2:It wasn't ignoring all the hua last week. It wasn't a very good story. It wasn't really coherent. This one was a really good, tight script and it worked. It was like I said. There's so many nice little points with the doctor trying not to think but having to think because he wants to think, and Donna and the concept and lots of little concepts. They're woven into the script. The thing with the line of salt and the little foreshadowing at the end. Lots of little bits that are in that script that you think yeah this is good stuff.
Speaker 2:This is proper doctor who?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's dawned on me. The last week we spent an hour just raging, basically, and this week we just call it 10 minutes. It was good. We joined it solid Now, but I think that's the joke. It's when you just get a good episode. You just went. Yeah, that was good there again nothing groundbreaking, nothing new.
Speaker 1:Actually, it was probably a nod to the old that made it a good episode, just because of, yes, doctor and companion in a corridor running for a monster which happens to be them, which was cool, and the fact that they didn't over explain it, they just went. Yeah, these are creatures from the Earth universe that have appeared and you don't know why. Because they don't know why, you just don't know. There was no day X Machina fix, it was just no outsmart and see later piece out TARDIS, admittedly the speed of the countdown and say, oh well, actually the TARDIS would have turned up at the exact moment you think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again back in the kitchen. Yeah, still offer reset, but not as big as last week, but it was still kind of there it was a big red button.
Speaker 2:It was, yeah, generally a big red button again, although he's interested. The mistake he made at the end when he picked the wrong Donna, now that was interesting and I thought she would have had more of a go at him for it, but he made a mistake there and it wasn't. It was the TARDIS that saved him and saved her, and I thought they're not. There's probably no room to expand on that because it's not along If it was a full series. Yeah, made a mistake and he picked the wrong one, and that doesn't often happen. So, yeah, it was a shame that they're not going to explore that anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't think the fact that he's is that well, is that setting up the fact he is valuable, ready for next week? We don't know, it could just be a subtle little thing. And well, actually, yeah, he's omnipotent, but not, yeah, not not completely. Hmm, yeah, obviously the big thing at the end of the episode will. Yeah, oh, I'm already. I was kind of waiting for him thinking he's got to be.
Speaker 2:He's got to be because they showed the shot. I think I mentioned the last time of the Doctor who confidential and he's at the read through. So he was there. Yeah, yes, fine, he did. Look, he did the old, though, didn't he? But then that last time he was in, it was when was that? That was like 15 odd years ago, so it's yeah it's time, moves on, but it's nice to see him. It's nice to see, but yeah, so that's good.
Speaker 2:And obviously they're now back in London Whenever we didn't actually establish, when it was time, how long had passed since they left. So that's it. That'll be interesting to see. Has it been days, months, years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it's going to be an interesting one. So you've got the celestial toy maker coming back. It's going to be cool. Neil Patrick Harris is going to act in front of stage.
Speaker 2:It's going to be amazing.
Speaker 2:It's going to be interesting how they're going to. They're going to have to explain for the non of you and actually, to be fair, I don't know much about it the toy maker take my Doctor who badge. But I know of it but don't really know the story because I know you this one of the lost episodes, isn't it? Yeah, and I'm surprised they didn't release that with the animation in time for this, but obviously they didn't. But they're going to have to explain who the toy maker is in quick fashion in an hour Set up, who that I replied.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I replied, we don't count that five minutes, so that that would be good. And we saw the. Have you seen the trailer for it? The little mini.
Speaker 1:No, was it.
Speaker 2:Yes, with you. See shooty at the end, don't you? Yes, yeah In tenants clothes, so they're going back to. Obviously I know why they didn't do it for 13 to 14.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, they didn't Didn't. Didn't? Didn't RTD specifically state that he did not want 10 regenerating into her clothes, because, basically, that scene would be used to destroy Doctor who? Yeah so everything had to change at the same time.
Speaker 2:So people would just use that pointless. So I agree with him on that. I think it would have been too distracting. So, yes, so next next week's. It's been an interesting thing. I think it's genuinely been just a very small mini series of episodes, really even less so than the other. One tenant did the specials and I'm ignoring Joe's specials, they felt like more specials. Yeah, yes, the previous series. She did one Easter one when she regenerated and the one in New Year. So they were specials.
Speaker 1:She didn't do it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But the series for proper series for specials felt bigger episodes than these, I don't know, yeah. So bigger they felt, more they felt yeah, bigger episodes.
Speaker 1:These is feel like three Doctor who episodes have been sewn together the fact that tenet regeneration was a two-parted, because of the madness that it was.
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:And I don't know why, but a one episode, regeneration, feel Okay. My fear is it's going to feel rushed Because we've got to explain the toy maker deal with the problem. Are we going to get an answer to the big question why disface?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, she said that we will get one.
Speaker 1:And then we've got to obviously get an ending. So is that going to just feel condensed in an hour?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's not even, it's just an hour, and like the extra five minutes for the Obviously the end of it. I don't know, and the thing is, and also, how are they going to get rid of Donna Because she isn't staying? Is he just going to leave, or is he? How's that going to work?
Speaker 1:I don't know and part of me there's a little hopeful part of me that still is thinking that he can just do it by choice and actually resolves on a story, leaves on the front door, piece out. Had enough of this change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, without needing to.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'd be interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because if it's a traumatic regeneration, then Donna's going to see that, and then how do you get a companion change without? Oh yeah, I don't know. Who knows who knows recently. Yeah, bob Orange to give the pump. But so back to Wild Wide, whichever is Blue Yonder, that we've basically touched on a bit other than it being it was good. Have we got to be able to say other than it was alright.
Speaker 2:It was good you enjoyed it. Yeah, it was good, I think.
Speaker 1:Right. I think my problem with the miniseries special so far is they're not memorable. Yeah, that's. There's no blink, there's no family of blood, there's no bang. I'm here.
Speaker 2:I think what you said last week about the curse of fandom rings true here.
Speaker 1:We.
Speaker 2:Russell T Davis. We all have that view of him being this great Doctor who writer. He's written all these wonderful things, although some of those stories you've mentioned he didn't write and I think possibly him coming in. We expected things to be perfect and have not been perfect for different reasons. Last one was like the political minefield that it was. This week was just a good episode but it wasn't special and I think next week will just be an end of series finale episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I could. It be critical because I step out into that minefield again.
Speaker 2:Russell T Davis to be critical Russell's, if you remember, because I think it's Rose Tisnick Glasses. No pun intended, Russell's end of series episodes were never that good. The one before it was always really good, like the Punalto episode. So series one, possibly because it was all new. Series two had the thing with the Sidemen and the Daleks. Series three had the really good shift from Derek Jacobi into John Sim, and then you had all the Toclophone nonsense and the oh, what was it? The Gollum Doctor in the Cage?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right Series four doesn't really count, because it was Tenants' Regeneration, so he didn't write very good final episodes. I never thought anyway, have you just.
Speaker 1:Indiana Jones Doctor who, just by lifting the veil and just going. Well, actually, oh no.
Speaker 2:Oh dear, what have you done? For me it was always a massive anti-climax, and even Moffat was the same that they could build the story up, but the final episode never lived up to what came before it. I think series three for me was always the one was like oh, it's really good. Oh right, it's a Gollum Doctor in a Bird Cage. So Rose Tinted Glasses everyone thinks. Russell T Davis is the second coming. It might be as bad as it was back then, and we're just expecting it to be really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I might I like to be. I think I'll happily be proved wrong.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so hopefully, because there's no cliffhanger involved, it will just be good. Yeah, we'll go with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we've had a cliffhanger into the series finale now, haven't we so? But I don't know. I think after last week's experience of having everything kind of be completely subverted, I now think, well, actually I'm now overthinking the opposite, whereas before I was oh, russell's coming back, it's going to be amazing. Oh no, it's all different. It's not 2005 anymore. I now think it. Actually some of his episodes weren't that good. So if we get Russell not on his best, we might get something.
Speaker 1:You mean the Oscar World Exolbal Off, that was oh.
Speaker 2:Christ, yeah, so we might end up something.
Speaker 1:Because that was RCD, wasn't it.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it was. It's a quick look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whereas Blink Midnight they were both Moffitt, weren't they?
Speaker 2:Ah, midnight Blink definitely was. Yeah, yeah, that's so well at Midnight.
Speaker 1:I think Midnight was.
Speaker 2:No. Russell T Davis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, yeah.
Speaker 2:What about Family of?
Speaker 1:Blood.
Speaker 2:That was Moffitt, I thought, was it Gattis?
Speaker 1:I think that might be Gattis, Because it was a book wasn't it first. Yeah.
Speaker 2:With Seventh, doctor Paul Cornell, because of course he wrote the book. Yeah, so it's not always what you think. I think all the ones that were really good.
Speaker 1:So have we been going to Fireplace the classic.
Speaker 2:I love her. We know why, but it wasn't a great story.
Speaker 1:Doesn't matter, I love her. That episode had nothing to do with it, Because, yeah, that was obviously. I knew that one. But, yeah, I just love Sophia Miles and she knows this I know this, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Right, we're drifted off now. We're drifted off before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bring me back, bring me back.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I don't know, Maybe I'm.
Speaker 1:So have we been hoisted by our own fandom, batard In case we're just going, oh yeah, we're just so. Yeah, is it a case that we were so dejected that now we're so hyped for it that actually, like you said, unless it's a second coming and even then it's not going to be because you've had an episode of Doctor who and a solid episode of Doctor who and now we're waiting for the first, the difficult third album, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I'm just looking at this Series three. This was it Blink, Utopia, the Sound of Drums all were just like three episodes and it rolled into the last of the time Lord of the Golem, Doctor in the thing, so I forgot there was Sound of Drums in between there, but it's still a thing. Russell wrote, Steve Moffat obviously wrote Blink and then Russell wrote the last three. So yeah, it is interesting. Series four you had I'll turn left we had the Donner doing the thing that was written by Russell, and then Stolen and the Journey's End were like, were great.
Speaker 2:So, I don't know, I am suspiciously to this stick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hopefully they can stick the landing and actually if it had been like a three-part up, would we now be having our return the King moment where you just go. Well, actually fellowship's good. Two towers is fantastic and return the King is just too long and doesn't go together.
Speaker 2:I don't know. It remains to be seen. I think we talked about it multiple times. We're never going to get a multiple doctor thing. Everyone thought we would. We're not going to get that and I think that's probably hindsight because of the state the series is in at the moment. Anyway, it needs that reboot more than it needs a celebration. Yeah, I like that. I like that. I'm going to claim that phrase and they've gone falling on the reboot, rather than to self reference and celebrate and bring back old faces.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because you're trying to appeal to the new fans. Yes, because that's what you need, because the old fans currently hate you.
Speaker 2:Ten years ago they were pulling in eight, seven, eight million viewers. They could do it because they were top of the tree. They ain't top of the tree anymore and five million viewers says they're still not quite there yet. And you talked about it. They've got to set it up for shooty, haven't they? So really, this isn't about tenant and Catherine Tate, this is about shooting Molly Gibson, about setting it up in a good place for Christmas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the old standing on the shoulder of giants, isn't it? Yes, yeah, so actually, if they'd have come back just with shooty and Molly, then you just go, could you imagine?
Speaker 2:I don't think fair to him. It would have worked, but it wouldn't have been as good. I think this way it gives them a buffer to get it on track and then just launch him into Easter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're using, like the, the tenant fan base, goodwill effectively to pump those numbers to give him the best chance, because could you imagine this was episode two of his mini series to get to Christmas and five million would be a pipe dream, yeah, yeah. If episode one. You get a few percent looking at who's new, but then you go. Well, actually, is it going to hold if it was at 3.5 for Jody's exit, which are always the high numbers, because I know I watched it just to make sure she was bloody gone, it'll be really interesting.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm going to get so much email for this oh the minefield.
Speaker 2:You're in the minefield. Come back, yeah.
Speaker 1:I bought a lot.
Speaker 2:It'd be really interesting to see what the ratings are for this episode. I'm just intrigued to see how it'll drop. Yeah, but it's how far it drops. If it drops into the threes, they've got a problem. If it drops into mid to late falls, they're okay, I think, because that's kind of the drop off.
Speaker 1:I think, I think the three specials will hold.
Speaker 2:Yes, I honestly do.
Speaker 1:I think the Christmas special needs to reach the same numbers as Tenant Special One, ie last week's episode. Yeah, five million Because you've got. Yeah, it needs to hit five million Because if it doesn't, again, you haven't retained those that were interested a week ago and that could be really telling.
Speaker 2:Just trying to see what time the Christmas special is on on Christmas Day. Don't think it's been released. Well, what time did it used to be on at Christmas? It used to be on about half seven, isn't it Eight o'clock?
Speaker 1:I don't know, sometimes on about six. So any time between like six and eight.
Speaker 2:Well, time travels. Weird the old Christmas Day, doesn't it? It's a bit like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure I remember watching a half-five at night, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually you might be right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you did your Christmas dinner. You've done that by three, opens some presents and then you're ready for Doctor who. Yeah, I want to say that half-five six pm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not been announced. Obviously, yes, but a bit too far away at the moment. Yeah, so I imagine it'd be at the same time. It's up six thirty seven-ish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again I think they're going to need. Can they hit five million on Christmas Day? Because you've got a captive audience and it's the big thing.
Speaker 2:Let's have a look what the ratings were like for Christmas Day there we go. So four each of the damned. Here we go. Quiz time how many millions? So this is actually? We'll go in reverse order, so start with. I think these are all up to date because I think it stopped after this website's a little bit out of date, but let's have a look. Remember this one Return of Doctor Mysterio. I forgot about that one. Return of Doctor Mysterio and the guy who thought you was a superhero.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, watch that one.
Speaker 2:Guess how many million do you think? Zero point, one Eight point two, one million, really, yep, next one. Wow, husbands of River Song.
Speaker 1:Seven.
Speaker 2:Eight point two, seven I'm going up. So that's a clue. I'm going up, oh right, twice upon a time. So that was Capaldi's regeneration episode.
Speaker 1:Eight and a half.
Speaker 2:Oh, eight point two, eight Runaway Bride. So first one, catherine Tate.
Speaker 1:Eight point seven.
Speaker 2:Nine, point three, five, fuck me Last Christmas. Yeah, 12th Doctor, don't you remember what happened in it? That's really bad.
Speaker 1:Oh, is that the? Is that the regeneration one?
Speaker 2:No, it's got a picture that I can't see what happened in it. Oh, was it the one? No, that was Matt Smith With the wooden people and the thing.
Speaker 1:The wooden people and the thing.
Speaker 2:And the thing in the Victorian era. I don't even know what that is, Anyway 9.62 million. Christmas invasion. I've got to go through these outboard. 9.84 for Christmas invasion Snowmen. That was the one with Richard E Grant. That was good. That was Clara, first, clara, second Clara 9.87 million. There we go. The Doctor of the Widow and the War Job. That's the thing with the wooden people 10.77 million.
Speaker 1:Bloody hell.
Speaker 2:Time of the Doctor. That was his regeneration 11.14 million.
Speaker 1:I remember being bored at my skull.
Speaker 2:End of time part one 12.4 million, which you'd understand. You're going to get angry for this one. Top three Number three A Christmas Carol, oh. Michael Gambon sadly died and Captain Jenkins 12.11 million.
Speaker 1:Ow oh, no, just got too angry. I forgot about this one. I'll hang on. I'm fine, not awful, I forgot about that one.
Speaker 2:The next Doctor Remember that one. I forgot about that one. Oh, with me boy. Yeah, 13.1 million and Voyage of the Dam 13.31 million. Wow.
Speaker 1:It's never going to reach that height ever again.
Speaker 2:Is it realistically but?
Speaker 1:13 million, so the lowest is in the eighths.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go. And that was when the average was seven and eights for those series. The lowest was in one of Capaldi's poorest episodes Eight million on Christmas Day. So there you go. There's a benchmark If they can hit seven. I think they're doing pretty well.
Speaker 1:But seven would still be the lowest watched one ever. And this is the problem they've got there's captive audience, they should get one yeah. Yeah, because, let's face it, they're not going to get anywhere near Voyage of the Damned.
Speaker 2:No, we've always said there's lots of reasons why, not just the fact that it's not as popular. When you're looking at New Year's Specials 3.4 million was last year's one. Hang on, what year are you in? 22? No year before last, just googled it. So, yeah, interesting. They've got to hit seven or eight to be anywhere up there and they can't go lower than five.
Speaker 1:That's a hell of an ask.
Speaker 2:Well, if the trend goes up, then they're looking all right, but if it doesn't go up I'm not an expert, but they'll carry on. It's not something to stop, is it Well?
Speaker 1:I don't know how committed are the Bebe slash, Disney slash, who in the studio?
Speaker 2:whatever they're called. There's a lot of money being thrown at it, hasn't it? So yeah, I can't imagine there's going to be just cancel it. I suppose it depends what everyone's contracts is Like. If RTD's signed in for three years, say yeah, well, we joke, didn't we?
Speaker 1:Instead, you could have regenerated the left before it even even had.
Speaker 2:He's done two, so he's on his second one. So RTD's done three effectively, or two and a half. So when it's his own company, though, isn't it? It's not as if he signed up to the BBC. It's his company that's doing the production. So it's all the wranglings of TV it's like is it worth the investment? Blah, blah, blah. We talked about that before, about canceling it versus not cancel it. I can't, don't know, certainly be around for a couple of years yet, because you think about it. Shoot, you'll do one season next year, that's 2024. You do Christmas special 24, another one in 25.
Speaker 1:So you look at it 26.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it'll just roll on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the fact that you can almost sit and watch why it's three seasons and go. We haven't had a Tom Baker undoing 74 million seasons and never leaving.
Speaker 2:And I don't think we will. I think shooty is in the same position that Matt Smith was coming in Young actor on the way up, not selfishly, but he'll use it as a springboard to do other things. He will leave after three seasons.
Speaker 1:That Smith was unknown, wasn't he?
Speaker 2:Completely unknown Shooty's slightly different, isn't he?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because obviously he was in Barbie movies. Done takes education. Yeah, he's done a lot of stuff on TV.
Speaker 2:He was Matt Smith and he'd done the theatre, hadn't he really? Yeah, yeah. Actually to be fair Tennant was similar. He'd done some TV, but not on some film that year, but he wasn't. He was in the same kind of boat in the sense that he wasn't, he wasn't well known.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was not a household name.
Speaker 2:No, and Capaldi yes, and Wichita yes, to a certain extent, because she'd done quite a lot of TV as well. Yeah, yes, so I don't know. So I think that's it. We've gravitated away from the gravity.
Speaker 1:Well, at the end of the universe, well, I think, going back to great well in the universe. I think the reason why we haven't talked about it much is because there was nothing to really no. It was to hit up, it was a controversial, it was. Yeah, we didn't have to spend half an hour avoiding the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2:It was just yep.
Speaker 1:It was a Doctor's episode.
Speaker 2:It was good. It was a good episode, and that's it Times.
Speaker 1:You've got that, yeah, and that's what you could say and would do again yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the problem. We're expecting episodes at a 10 out of 10 and we're getting well an episode one which I'm not going to give a score to because I get a shout out. An episode two was a seven. Would watch again, but probably not after that because it's I think this is the problem. You get the always a mystery. You can't watch it again unless you just want to pick up the things you missed the first time, because the mystery is solved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I suppose you could probably go back and Some of their acting was done really well and you could probably watch some of the nuances of the Aeons versus them to try and spot the difference and stuff like that. But yeah, it's just a normal episode.
Speaker 1:And I think that's it, talking of spotting the difference between the aliens and them. So when they first, when the aliens first appear, the Doctor copy is far better than the Donna copy. Because he's thinking, yeah, if you look at him, he's far more active than interactive. Whereas the Donna copy was a bit like a road. Hello, I am Donna yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool, yeah, yeah, so there you go. Yeah, so little things like that, which you could probably go back and go, that's quite good, yeah, and I think that's the sort of thing you need for a second what's?
Speaker 1:because you don't spot it the first time around, Whereas the actual mystery itself you're not interested in that point. You're just going oh, what are the nuances? Like the Doctor versus Donna thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool. Yes, oh, okay. I think that's a good place to end on, isn't it Positive? Yeah, this week Positive.
Speaker 1:For change. Yes, so next week is episode 13.
Speaker 2:13. It's called the Giggle. I know what it's called.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, and we're hoping for?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was my. I'm not sure of my answer. The less sure I've become, the higher my pitch goes. So we're expecting good things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We have made peace with the fact. It's not going to be the second coming of Jesus Nope. And it's not going to be a multi-doctor story Nope, it's going to be.
Speaker 2:It's going to be, it might be in it for five minutes. Unit will be in it, because what's the face doesn't? Be, in it yet. And they're going to regenerate somewhere, because if you saw it on the trailer Tenant, the background behind Tenant was also cloudy, blue, blank town like Shooties was. So wherever they're regenerating is somewhere significant.
Speaker 1:Mmm.
Speaker 2:Watch this space.
Speaker 1:Interesting times, yeah and yeah. So that'll be our third episode in as many weeks. Wow, I feel sorry for you, tim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel sorry for you. That's tomorrow morning's job. Get this out quickly, beat the rush.
Speaker 1:Well, we did well this time. There was no stopping, no swearing, no ranting.
Speaker 2:So yeah, smiles all around.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to rank these specials so far one, two, so it's a really complex ranking system. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I could have shocked everyone and said one, two, but that would be lying.
Speaker 2:Oh right, yes, On that note, I shall say cheerio until next weekend.
Speaker 1:And I shall say ta ta, bye, bye.